Can you get the same quality sound from a UST/UBT and preamp pedal compared...

[Wellington]

Holy moly that title was getting long, I’ll just ask it here.
I’ve been keeping an eye out for a while for a guitar to potentially use in church.
I have been looking at so many different kinds of guitars, but some of the ones that appeal to me most don't have electronics, which is fine because I hate exposed knobs etc on acoustic guitars. But if the guitar was mainly for performing, I would make an exception.
Since I prefer no knobs, but don’t want to sacrifice good sound quality through the speakers, I’d like some second opinions.

Again, I’m focusing more here on the pickup system than the guitar for my question. But here’s a few guitars with preamps I’ve been looking at:
Yamaha A3M
Yamaha FGX3
Potentially Taylor?
Godin/higher end Norman without L.R Baggs Anthem.

Guitars without these preamps built in:
My current LL16 which I’m not selling or trading for the potential new guitar.
Larrivee D40 (this is sort of out of the price range though)
Larrivee D02
Yamaha FG3

If I got, let’s say the D02 or FG3, and installed a JJB pickup under the bridge, or installed a Fishman under saddle Matrix that a very generous person gave me that I’m putting in my new Folk guitar, but I could always hold off several months and put it in this 'down the road' potential guitar.
If I ran to a decent preamp (I do own a new BBE Acoustimax that I don’t use as I don’t even have an acoustic amp) could I still get comparable tone with different pedals? Let’s say even the Baggs pedal preamp?

Or is this even a debate, is it obvious that a guitar with a good built in system is going to have a better plugged in tonal quality than a passive pickup with pedals?

[Petty1818]

I think I get what you are asking... If you want to know if aftermarket pickups can sound as good as factory installed systems then yes they definitely can. However, there are variables. Some guitars that come equipped with pickups don't sound all that great so it's better to listen and see exactly what you want. I tend to always recommend getting a purely acoustic guitar and then installing electronics. Also, if you installed a UST pickup, chances are it won't sound as good as certain factory installed pickups like the Taylor ES2 for example.

Now to add to that, SBT's and UST's sound quite different. You won't find a UST that sounds all that acoustic, unless you pair it with a tonedexter or spectrum aura from Fishman. If you go that route, you won't be as happy as what Yamaha and Taylor offer (some Yamaha models do use a UST and a similar aura imaging) A SBT like the K&K is often a good start as it's consistent and sounds quite nice. If you are new to performing though, the K&K can take a bit of getting used to in terms of eq and feedback resistance.

Again, I think you would do better to narrow down what sound you like.

[RockerDuck]

I have to like the guitar plays first, then the pickup system second. Ust guitars I had often struggled with to remove the quack. I settled on Taylor guitars for the stable sounding ES2 system.

[Gordon Currie]

I've yanked every built-in system from all my guitars that had them and replaced them with passive SBTs.

In general, companies do not put in the best electronics - but the least expensive ones. That's just a fact of life in the manufacturing world. You'll never see a factory-installed Dazzo, for instance.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by Gordon Currie

I've yanked every built-in system from all my guitars that had them and replaced them with passive SBTs.

In general, companies do not put in the best electronics - but the least expensive ones. That's just a fact of life in the manufacturing world. You'll never see a factory-installed Dazzo, for instance.

Hmm, not that easy. As I mentioned, there are variables. I agree that many under $2000 guitars often have a simple UST system (not always the case), but there are many built in electronics in guitars that rival or sound better than a Dazzo for example. Take a look at Takamine, Maton, Cole Clark, Taylor with the ES2, Martin with their aura system, Yamaha (Atmosfeel). All of those systems are fantastic. If I were in the market for a purely stage guitar I would personally be buying a Maton or Yamaha F series with the atmosfeel. The Taylor ES2 is really nice as well, I just like a couple options and not just a single source.

[YamahaGuy]

For curiosity sake, what's wrong with your LL16? I hated the way mine sounded plugged in, so I sold my LL16M. In fact, I'm not a fan of the Yamaha Zero Impact pickup. I have a CSF1 too and it sounded terrible plugged in...until I ran it through a Yamaha AG Stomp.

[Wellington]

Originally Posted by YamahaGuy

For curiosity sake, what's wrong with your LL16? I hated the way mine sounded plugged in, so I sold my LL16M. In fact, I'm not a fan of the Yamaha Zero Impact pickup. I have a CSF1 too and it sounded terrible plugged in...until I ran it through a Yamaha AG Stomp.

Not the greatest pickup in the ll16, but it’s also that for rhythm strumming I’ve been thinking about a mahogany guitar, but I’m overthinking it. I realistically can’t afford a new guitar in the foreseeable future anyway, I’m more or less dreaming. I could replace the pickup in my ll16, but I also thought if I was mostly strumming I might like a narrower nut.

[YamahaGuy]

Originally Posted by d.loseth

Not the greatest pickup in the ll16, but it’s also that for rhythm strumming I’ve been thinking about a mahogany guitar, but I’m overthinking it. I realistically can’t afford a new guitar in the foreseeable future anyway, I’m more or less dreaming. I could replace the pickup in my ll16, but I also thought if I was mostly strumming I might like a narrower nut.

If you can find a used A1M or A3M, they're very nice. I bought a "beater" and got an A1M with (beat up) hardshell case for $250 used from GC and unplugged its loud and sounds great. Plugged in, the tone is really good. Not as good as my FGX5, but good enough I'll gig with it.

[Sgt. Pepper]

I also have a Yamaha LL16......great guitar.

Right after I got it I took it to an open mic.
Because of the passive p/u, it was pretty plinky/quacky sounding.

I went back the next time with a Boss AD-2 preamp.
To say it made a world of difference would be an understatement.

I'd spend a little dough on an outboard preamp to try out if I were in your shoes.

[Gordon Currie]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

... but there are many built in electronics in guitars that rival or sound better than a Dazzo for example. Take a look at Takamine, Maton, Cole Clark, Taylor with the ES2, Martin with their aura system, Yamaha (Atmosfeel).

Well, we have widely varying experiences. The ES2 isn't even in the same ballpark as the Dazzo in my use.
My partner's old Taylor + ES2 sounded quite presentable straight 'out of the jack', but it took ToneDexter to bring it up to a level I was getting with *only* a Dazzo.
I've heard examples of all those systems (except Cole Clark) and for fast/hard picking, each one has too much 'sproing' in the tone for me - something the Dazzo does not.
I guess we'll agree to disagree.

I agree with your point that there is a range of quality available installed.

I think something germane to the OP is that ease of use is it's own quality factor, especially live.
A better built-in system will have an edge there.

[Kittoon]

I bought a Martin PA1 cutaway with what I had hoped to be Martins best electronics. 6 months later, I pulled it out and installed KK passive. Much happier.

[Br1ck]

My thoughts:

A Taylor will sound good plugged in. Not great, but good. A great swiss army knife solution.

A better onboard system is a Cole Clark with the three way pickup. Mic. USB UST with everything you need. Use any combination or just one. Your choice.

Don't want to spend $2000? Take one guitar, get a set of Dazzos and either a Sunn Audio onboard DI, or a Stage One or Redeye.

The other option is use any guitar with any pickup, even a UST, and train a ToneDexter, provided you really like the guitar, and can access a good mic.

If I were only going to use one guitar amplified, and had a guitar that sounded good. I might be tempted to go with Dazzos and the onboard Sunn Audio pre. If I could see wanting to use multiple guitars, a ToneDexter makes sense.

[shufflebeat]

As you can see there are as many solutions as there are opinions.

I'd not bought a guitar in a while but I went on a bit of a mission a few months ago for a decent stage guitar that ended up with me buying an old Takamine. I was pretty shocked at the quality of fitting and sound of some of the supposedly stage-ready instruments available from well known brands.

Towards the lower end of the Martin, Taylor and even Yamaha ranges the electronics were nowhere near acceptable, uneven response across the strings and generally horrible plasticky noise. Some were OK but consistency was disappointing. These were up against my other old Takamine and cheaper guitars I've fitted pickups to including Crafter and LAG dreads and an old Framus archtop. All of these were better than the factory fitted systems at 1/4 the price.

If you're handy with the tools you might be well served by the Fishman Matrix in your existing guitar or a reasonable priced player and either a Tonedexter or an IR loader like the Mooer Radar or more expensive Helix.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by shufflebeat

As you can see there are as many solutions as there are opinions.

I'd not bought a guitar in a while but I went on a bit of a mission a few months ago for a decent stage guitar that ended up with me buying an old Takamine. I was pretty shocked at the quality of fitting and sound of some of the supposedly stage-ready instruments available from well known brands.

Towards the lower end of the Martin, Taylor and even Yamaha ranges the electronics were nowhere near acceptable, uneven response across the strings and generally horrible plasticky noise. Some were OK but consistency was disappointing. These were up against my other old Takamine and cheaper guitars I've fitted pickups to including Crafter and LAG dreads and an old Framus archtop. All of these were better than the factory fitted systems at 1/4 the price.

If you're handy with the tools you might be well served by the Fishman Matrix in your existing guitar or a reasonable priced player and either a Tonedexter or an IR loader like the Mooer Radar or more expensive Helix.

Yeah that's pretty common. I find that a lot of guitars under $1500 tend to have simple UST systems. Some are good (Matrix/Element) but others are quite cheap. With that said, I believe most of the Taylor line, even the 100 models, have the ES2 system. It might not be the best system in the world but it's far better than a UST and has a nice natural tone.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

Yeah that's pretty common. I find that a lot of guitars under $1500 tend to have simple UST systems. Some are good (Matrix/Element) but others are quite cheap. With that said, I believe most of the Taylor line, even the 100 models, have the ES2 system. It might not be the best system in the world but it's far better than a UST and has a nice natural tone.

I really like the Taylor ES2 as it's truly plug-and-play and a good amplified tone can be heard using just the onboard preamp controls on the guitar. Of course, all manner of extra geegaws can be placed in the signal chain for players who like to fiddle around with the stuff and may feel somehow naked without it all. As far as extraneous string noise, body thudding, and other sounds, I don't think the ES2, especially the last two versions, is any worse in general than SBT systems in this regard.