Is this neck angle OK or not?

JackB1 · #1 08-29-2021, 08:22 PM

OK I picked up a Martin used and it has one issue....the neck angle is off by about 1/8". When you run a straight edge along the neck, it lands about 1/8" below the top of the bridge. Is this acceptable or not? The action is a tad high for me but doable. It's about .100" and I prefer .090". The saddle has not much more room to sand down or I would do that. So it looks like this is as low as the action can possibly go without a neck reset. So is this a dangerous guitar to keep? Will the neck be stable for a while at the place it is now? Take a look at the pics and tell me if I should just return this guitar or not or if it's worth keeping. Like I said, it plays OK where its at right now, but the saddle is getting low and there's no more room to go down. What do you guys think? Thanks in advance!

JackB1 · #2 08-30-2021, 06:16 AM

Can anyone offer some advice?

RoanM · #3 08-30-2021, 06:25 AM

If it plays good then it's fine in my opinion. If you, however, don't feel like you should keep it then don't, because I've been there and I always end up selling them then.

I will say, I've seen guitars with higher action and lower saddles. Judging by the photos, to me the saddle doesn't seem extremely low... I've seen saddles almost all the way down to the bridge, maybe sticking up 1 mm.

But someone more knowledgeable than me will comment on this and get you a definitive answer.

TheGITM · #4 08-30-2021, 06:56 AM

How is the neck relief? Any bowing at all? Run a long flat edge across the frets and see if there is any gap on the middle frets. If so, you need to adjust the truss rod.

If you detune the strings does the neck angle change at all?

Worst case, you'll need to have the neck reset to get it back into alignment. Honestly, I like low action so it would bug me terribly to have that on a guitar I just purchased.

JackB1 · #5 08-30-2021, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheGITM

How is the neck relief? Any bowing at all? Run a long flat edge across the frets and see if there is any gap on the middle frets. If so, you need to adjust the truss rod.

If you detune the strings does the neck angle change at all?

Worst case, you'll need to have the neck reset to get it back into alignment. Honestly, I like low action so it would bug me terribly to have that on a guitar I just purchased.

The relief is at around .007”. I took it down as much as possible before getting fret buzz. How would detuning the strings cause the neck to move?

TheGITM · #6 08-30-2021, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1

The relief is at around .007”. I took it down as much as possible before getting fret buzz. How would detuning the strings cause the neck to move?

Just wondering if string tension was affecting the neck at all.

warfrat73 · #7 08-30-2021, 07:33 AM

I'm not sure why you're saying that there's no room to bring the saddle any lower. It sure looks like there's more than enough saddle there to bring the action to where you want, and likely even a bit lower. You want to lower the action at the 12th by about .01", you need to remove .02" from the saddle... unless your pictures are very misleading, it seems that wouldn't be a problem.

That also looks like a particularly thick bridge. To the best of my understanding, Martin uses a couple of difference thickness bridges to accommodate minor differences in neck angle.

The straightedge to the top of the bridge thing is only meant as a rough guideline taken into account with other considerations.

JackB1 · #8 08-30-2021, 07:51 AM

Is this enough saddle sticking out?

JackB1 · #9 08-30-2021, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by warfrat73

I'm not sure why you're saying that there's no room to bring the saddle any lower. It sure looks like there's more than enough saddle there to bring the action to where you want, and likely even a bit lower. You want to lower the action at the 12th by about .01", you need to remove .02" from the saddle... unless your pictures are very misleading, it seems that wouldn't be a problem.

That also looks like a particularly thick bridge. To the best of my understanding, Martin uses a couple of difference thickness bridges to accommodate minor differences in neck angle.

The straightedge to the top of the bridge thing is only meant as a rough guideline taken into account with other considerations.

It looks bigger in the pictures. There’s very little saddle protruding from the top of the bridge.

steveh · #10 08-30-2021, 08:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1

Is this enough saddle sticking out?

Yes, it’s fine.

Cheers,
Steve

Rudy4 · #11 08-30-2021, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackB1

I measured from the soundboard to the strings near the bridge and it's 1/2" which is what it should be, so that's good. But the saddle seems quite low to me compared to what I normally see on other Martins.

There's a reason someone opted to move this Martin on. The neck angle should have been relayed to potential buyers in the advertisement.

Although there's enough saddle to lower it for easier playing this often negatively effects tone and volume, and if you want a Martin these are attributes that players normally want to keep. This guitar is already below what you normally would see for exposed saddle so it's probably already been shaved a few times. Do be aware that the overall bridge/saddle height is what lets the string transfer energy to the sound board effectively. Decreasing that dimension is a good way of turning a good guitar into just another guitar.

On the other hand, neck resets are common for Martins (or most other guitars) but aren't cheap or without their own set of risks.

H165 · #12 08-30-2021, 08:24 AM

There are "rules of thumb" about where a straight edge might sit during un-strung preliminary setup AND under full tension. Here's Bryan Kimsey's take on it, and here's the link to that page:

http://www.bryankimsey.com/necksets/reinstall.htm

"Here's the "yardstick check" in action. The yardstick is running down the fingerboard and, as you can see, just barely touches or even slightly clears the bridge. You must make this check under string tension, though! Depending on the neck and looseness of the top, this yardstick might be almost to the top of the saddle with the string tension removed. Just for reference, if I'm shooting for a .098" low E under tension, I find that the low E will measure .060-.076" with just a little string tension. The action will change that much under tension. That's why I like the jig- I can get a real-life check on the action with the strings at tension and the saddle height I'm going to use."

warfrat73 · #13 08-30-2021, 08:26 AM

There's plenty of saddle, it's perfectly normal. You don't need a huge swath of saddle sticking out.

If you measured the height, and the top of the saddle is 1/2" from the soundboard, that's just right. And everything is pretty much fine.

The notion that "this neck angle should have been disclosed" seems a bit of a stretch to me. Particularly since 90% of the guitar playing public wouldn't really know what we're talking about. It's certainly not in the range of needing an immediate reset unless someone wanted unusually low action.

I would say that the .007 relief is just a touch on the high side. But that's a different story.

If you're not happy and want to send it back, then send it back. But it seems in the normal range to me.

To your other question about humidity, yes that could change the geometry a bit. If it it dries out a bit that top might drop a little. If it it picks up humidity it might rise a touch.

FWIW here's the saddle on my D-18.

JackB1 · #14 08-30-2021, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rudy4

There's a reason someone opted to move this Martin on. The neck angle should have been relayed to potential buyers in the advertisement.

Although there's enough saddle to lower it for easier playing this often negatively effects tone and volume, and if you want a Martin these are attributes that players normally want to keep. This guitar is already below what you normally would see for exposed saddle so it's probably already been shaved a few times. Do be aware that the overall bridge/saddle height is what lets the string transfer energy to the sound board effectively. Decreasing that dimension is a good way of turning a good guitar into just another guitar.

On the other hand, neck resets are common for Martins (or most other guitars) but aren't cheap or without their own set of risks.

I agree, but neck angle is something most average guitar players/sellers aren't really knowledgeable about. This guitar is a 2014 and the seller said he bought it new and has never done any work to it. He said it even had the original strings on it. It's possible it was a return that was resold as new and it's also possible the seller isn't being 100% honest, although he seems to be.

The saddle has definitely been reduced, so is it possible it came out of the factory like that? The neck angle isn't "way off", so is it possible they sanded the saddle to get the guitar to the desired initial specs? The seller agreed to refund me, but didn't say if they would reimburse me to ship it back to him. That might cost me over $100.

redir · #15 08-30-2021, 08:47 AM

You have plenty of saddle left to have that set up the way you want it. If it is at .10 now and you want it at .90 then you need to remove .02 at the saddle. That's less than 1/32 of an inch.

Plenty of room. DOn't worry about it. Plus depending on where you live if it's very humid like it is in many places this time of year it could be that the guitar is a bit wet which will make the top bulge up raising the action.