Celtic In Standard?

[Skip Ellis]

Does anyone do this? I love Celtic music but after 60 years of playing in standard tuning, I find DADGAD impossible to get my head around - the notes are in the wrong places. Some have told me to just learn some DADGAD arrangements out of a book but I've never been one to copy someone else's stuff and I hate TAB. I've always learned the melody and harmony to a tune and then played it my own way. Suggestions or tricks to make DADGAD less painful would be appreciated....or reassurance that it can be done in standard tuning.

[packmule]

Guitarist Tony O'Rourke plays Irish trad tunes in standard tuning - he has a book available that you can download:

https://irishguitarpod.com/oflatpicking/

[rick-slo]

Hang out in DADGAD for a while. They're just notes and you can play with them more readily when you know a
few chord positions to run through some chord progressions. I have written a number of things using DADGAD
even though I usually hang out in standard tuning. You often get a little more droning sound in DADGAD which
is harder to pull off in standard tuning. A bit of a middle ground in this regard is using the dropped D tuning.

[Doug Young]

Anything can be done in any tuning, but I would say that most of the examples I've come across of people playing celtic music in standard sound a bit stiff, and a bit vanilla, or "standard", for lack of a better word. Doesn't mean it can't be done. But most players at least use Drop D.

DADGAD's not hard. In fact, you can almost think of it as a subset of standard tuning - in standard, the 5-3 strings, are A,D,G. In DADGAD, you just have those same strings repeated in octaves - a lower and higher D, and a higher A. If you know the notes in standard, they're all there in DADGAD too - like say you want an F# If you know where it is on the 4th string (4th fret), then there's also one on the 6th string, 4th fret, and 1st string 4th fret. There's actually less to know in DADGAD.... If you can play a melody in standard on the top two strings, you can play it exactly the same in DADGAD, just move your hand up two frets. And so on.

But there are many useful tunings, including standard, so whatever works for you. If you're making up your own arrangements, you can do anything you like, so it won't matter if no one else is doing it, and creating some nice arrangements in standard tuning is likely to be appreciated by others.

[Robin, Wales]

Hi Skip,

For me, 'DADGAD' and 'Celtic' mean driving rhythm. But then I have lived in the Scottish Highlands (I have 3 sons who are born Highlanders) and now I live in West Wales, so I'm centred in the Celtic nations. The guitar is not seen primarily as a solo instrument here - it has a job to do - and that is to take the lead instrument's (usually fiddle) melody to dark, peat smoked and whisky fueled places. It needs DADGAD to do this.

I have played around a little with DADGAD myself. In fact, in the second Soundcloud clip in my signature below I used DADGAD guitar to move Elzic's Farewell played on mountain dulcimer from the Appalachian mountains to Caledonia. Now I'm no great shakes as a guitarist at all, and I can't remember exactly what DADGAD chords I used for that backing, but I can remember just noodling around to find sounds that fitted rather than finding chords in a book. I doubt I used more than two fingers for any chords.

And that is the delight of DADGAD - you can get away with murder!!! You are playing against root and 5th drones (like the bagpipes or uilleann pipes, and dulcimer for that matter) so there's no major or minor at its heart - these are implied by the melody. Therefor many of the common DADGAD chords (although given weird names) will go across both major or minor tunes. And that, for me, is the significant difference between using DADGAD and standard tuning - the ambiguity of playing against drones.

I know that DADGAD has become popular with fingerstyle players and flatpickers for playing tunes - and why not - it provides a natural canvas over which to paint. But, for me, true 'Celtic' guitar would be about sitting in with a ceilidh band in the Highlands or twmpath band here in Wales and really driving the evening home - breaking strings and picks and a few hearts along the way!

[MThomson]

I have a bit of the same issue, but I'm sticking with DADGAD for now. The drone and ability to let notes continue to ring is the winner here.

Doug Young's book "understanding Dadgad" is excellent. I just wish I had more time to practice!

[anton]

I think Duck Baker's album of celtic tunes, Kid on the Mountain, is mostly in standard tuning, it might be worth trying to track that cd.

Anything can work in any tuning. I assume you are talking fingerstyle playing/arranging here? For flatpicking melody or rhythm standard tuning works great.

I think most of this material lends itself towards alt tunings just because its easier to keep a bass line going while working out the melody on top. Alot of this stuff is in D or G, so DADGAD works well. I mostly use CGDGCD with a capo at II if I want to play in D.

Also some tunings lend themselves to easier execution of the harp effect, or playing consecutive notes on adjacent strings so things ring out. But that stuff can be found in standard tuning too.

I think when I was just starting out I got this book, and most of the stuff was in standard. It might be worth checking out to get some ideas.

https://www.sheetmusicplus.com/title...-music/3391236

I'd say its your music, and a tuning should not dictate how you play, so if you want to stick to standard than do that. It might have a different feel than other material out there, which will be great. Also Drop D is just one note away, and might give you alot of advantages without much adjustment.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Skip Ellis

Does anyone do this? I love Celtic music but after 60 years of playing in standard tuning, I find DADGAD impossible to get my head around - the notes are in the wrong places. Some have told me to just learn some DADGAD arrangements out of a book but I've never been one to copy someone else's stuff and I hate TAB. I've always learned the melody and harmony to a tune and then played it my own way. Suggestions or tricks to make DADGAD less painful would be appreciated....or reassurance that it can be done in standard tuning.

Hi Skip

As a teacher I used to start students who wanted to play more fluently in DADGAD in Dropped D for a lesson or two. Then we's add Double Dropped D (strings 1 & 6 tuned to D) for a couple lessons. Then we'd drop the 2nd string to A and wah-lah DADGAD. We were adapting songs they already knew to the alternate tunings, not learning anything new.

Another thing I did was let students borrow a 3 string cut-capo (at 2nd fret) and taught them to play in key of D relative to the capo, with lots of one and two finger chords. The 'open' strum across the strings is the same interval as DADGAD, but it is still tuned to standard so barre chords are normal.

With judicious choices, and one and two finger chords, they had a lot of fun working with cut capos. Can add a nice Irishy styling flavor to the music.

Interestingly, when students played with the cut capo and then dropped back to DADGAD a lot of the same techniques and runs transferred across.

Here's an ancient video I did (2008) demoing the one finger chords…and how to think key of D with an Esus capo. There are brief notes in the SHOW MORE section.



I've actually ported some of my DADGAD songs and CGCGCD songs to standard using a cut capo.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Skip Ellis

after 60 years of playing in standard tuning, I find DADGAD impossible to get my head around

Hardly surprising!

As the others say, you don't have to play Celtic music in DADGAD; there's lots playable in EADGBE, or Drop D (which preserves most of what you're used to).

I also agree with the others that DADGAD has its own charms - regardless of any connection with Celtic music. (Davy Graham invented it partly to merge Moroccan sounds with British folk.)
You have to kind of forget about notes, and go with the flow of the patterns.

[The Bard Rocks]

I play a fair amount of Celtic music, in standard usually, and have yet to fathom why DADGAD is so popular for it. I fooled with it for a while (probably not nearly long enough) and missed having the full chord sound.

[TBman]

Glenn Weiser has a few books of Celtic music available. I have 3 of his books and they are all in standard tuning. He has some things on Youtube also if you want to check him out. To me it just doesn't really sound all that Celtic, although it is. I think my perception of what is "Celtic" might be what is amiss.

Here's Glenn Weiser playing something from one of his books:


To me, the tune below, sounds more "Celtic" although its no more Celtic than anything arranged by Glenn Weiser. It is in DADGAD and played by me, and can be found in Jim Tozier's "Celtic Guitar Solos." Jim is also a forum member and drops in from time to time.

Flower of Magherally:


Its easier for me to play in DADGAD, CGDGCD, etc. than in standard. I can do more with less effort.
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[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks

I play a fair amount of Celtic music, in standard usually, and have yet to fathom why DADGAD is so popular for it. I fooled with it for a while (probably not nearly long enough) and missed having the full chord sound.

That full chord sound is what (as I understand it) gave guitarists a bad reputation when they started showing up at Irish sessiuns. Celtic music is modal, and traditionally wasn't played with much harmony - certainly not the western music, equally-tempered sound of a guitar strumming 6-string G, C and D with strong major thirds. For backing up Celtic music, that lack of a strong third - a more ambiguous sound - is a big selling point, and alternate tunings make it easier (not that it's impossible in standard, nor do alternate tunings prevent it).

Some of that's changed, I think, guitarists just overwhelmed the style, and now you hear lots of full western harmony and "normal" guitar in celtic music, but there's still a preference, I think, for more authentic sounds.

I don't know exactly what the OP is interested in. For fingerstyle approaches, alternate tunings just facilitate the cross-string harp sound that is popular with the style, and also sort of simulates the droning bagpipe-like sounds. Again, you can certainly play songs, melody, whatever, in any tuning, but if you want to sound like Martin Simpson, Tony McManus, Pierre Bensusan, Steve Baughman, or a 100 others, well, there's a reason they choose alternate tunings for their Celtic arrangements. You can do it differently, tho, all a matter of what sound you're going for.

[Robin, Wales]

Barry,

I loved your two tracks above - 'Flower of Magherally' and 'The Star of County Down'. That fingerstyle approach to DADGAD and CGDCGD for ballads is beautiful. You have a lovely touch.

Doug,

Your comments about the guitar's move into Celtic music are really interesting.

Yes it is that ambiguity of playing over drones that attracts me. I have not tried the guitar as a melody instrument in fingerstyle but I do play traditional style mountain dulcimer and some clawhammer banjo, both of which rely on modal tuning.

I have heard a couple of wonderful Irish fingerstyle dulcimer players. But my approach has been to use older instruments in noter drone style. In many respects this is technically a much simpler approach but, as I only have playing the melody on one string to work with, it is sort of more exposing in a raw sense - particularly to manage the notes of the scale that have the most dissonance against the drones. Here is Bana Strand played on an old Leonard Glen dulcimer - All of the traditional dulcimer makers used their own fret intonations and Leonard's fretting pattern is close to just intonation.



If I was going to start trying to play Celtic ballads on guitar in DADGAD. I think I would start with just finding the melody against open drones and then gradually expand the arrangements from there through experimentation.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by Robin, Wales

Barry,

I loved your two tracks above - 'Flower of Magherally' and 'The Star of County Down'. That fingerstyle approach to DADGAD and CGDCGD for ballads is beautiful. You have a lovely touch.

Robin, thank you!

[Frankieabbott]

Originally Posted by Skip Ellis

Does anyone do this? I love Celtic music but after 60 years of playing in standard tuning, I find DADGAD impossible to get my head around - the notes are in the wrong places. Some have told me to just learn some DADGAD arrangements out of a book but I've never been one to copy someone else's stuff and I hate TAB. I've always learned the melody and harmony to a tune and then played it my own way. Suggestions or tricks to make DADGAD less painful would be appreciated....or reassurance that it can be done in standard tuning.

Similar situation for me Skip. I've tried to play Celtic style music in standard tuning with some limited success. Even tried downtuning low E string to D to get a drone bass note and play in keys of A or D.
I've very recently (like in the past week) tried DADGAD and immediately can see the benefits for persevering . More drone notes....generally less finger movement (you can put a finger on a fret and "park it" there for longer periods....and get a more notes ringing out for longer periods. I'm lovin' it. Just a few strummed chords sound great.