Do woods matter as much with electric guitars?

[terrapin]

Originally Posted by LouieAtienza

I know how pickups work but didn't want to get into a dissertation since that's not what the topic is about. The strings will have an attack, swell, sustain, and decay and the woods will play a role as to how much of each, regardless of pickup. A guitar of balsa may sustain less than maple, which may sustain less than steel.

So then the pickups will "read" these different vibrations which are then amplified by the amplifier and converted to air movement via speaker cone. The output will be different, and its pretty simple to show this using any recording software.

This is true... In reality, all this AGAIN equates to every element of the guitar has its impact on the final sound. Small impact for some elements and larger impact for others. Wood is pretty minimal, pickups and amp are huge!

[terrapin]

I was just rereading one of my Gerald Weber Books on tube amps, and thought I wool "muddy" these waters further with this from Gerald, "...the speaker is what is vibrating the air and therefore responsible for the sound you are hearing. Just as water will not rise above its source, an amp will not sound any better than its speaker. Stated another way, the speaker is the final filter that colors the sound."

What do yo think about this...

[royd]

I think that even solid body electric guitars are first and foremost acoustic instruments. If you play that electric unplugged and it is dead with no sustain, the pickups or amp you use will not make it sound lively or have sustain. If it ain't there to start with, it ain't there.

So... if that is true, then the body wood does make a difference... but as with acoustics where two pieces of spruce are not the same, two pieces of swamp ash are not the same either. One might be resonant and alive while another is dull and dead. And just as Indian rosewood vs. mahogany is different rather than better, the same is true of swamp ash vs. alder. Also with electrics there are a few other issues (some of which are relevant to acoustics too) like the type of bridge, the neck joint, how the pups are mounted, what the pups are, scale length, etc. etc.

[Garthman]

Originally Posted by royd

I think that even solid body electric guitars are first and foremost acoustic instruments. . . . . .

Well I have to admit, that in all the years I've been playing guitar, this is the strangest statement I have ever heard

[stratokatsu]

I don't know about that. I've heard a lot of stories about people who were impressed with some electric guitar, usually a hollow body model, because it was loud enough and pleasing enough to their ear to practice unplugged. To an extent, I don't think Royd's comment is all that unusual.

[Garthman]

Originally Posted by stratokatsu

I don't know about that. I've heard a lot of stories about people who were impressed with some electric guitar, usually a hollow body model, because it was loud enough and pleasing enough to their ear to practice unplugged. To an extent, I don't think Royd's comment is all that unusual.

Well I suppose that all of us have picked up an electric guitar and played it unplugged for a time - especially in the wee small hours. But I think Royd's statement perpetuates the myth that the PUs somehow "amplify" the acoustic sound of an electric guitar - which is not so.

. . . "first and foremost acoustic intruments"? I don't think so.

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by terrapin

I was just rereading one of my Gerald Weber Books on tube amps, and thought I wool "muddy" these waters further with this from Gerald, "...the speaker is what is vibrating the air and therefore responsible for the sound you are hearing. Just as water will not rise above its source, an amp will not sound any better than its speaker. Stated another way, the speaker is the final filter that colors the sound."

What do yo think about this...

In our universe, in electronic transmission, transducers are the most subjective part of the signal chain.

Bob

[moon]

Originally Posted by alnico5

I'm interested in hearing how the wood affects the string vibration, adding or subtracting something to the electrons headed down the wire to the amp - and I don't mean that in smarty pants way!

Energy bleeds out of the strings at the nut (or frets) and bridge into the instrument and feeds back into the strings from the instrument at the same points. This is how the guitar construction (neck, body & fittings) affects the tone.

I'll need to take a detour for a moment to explain some terms.

You could say that all sounds can be defined by their volume envelope and timbre. A plucked string has a fast initial attack, fast initial decay, and then a sustained level which decays more slowly. In a twangy guitar like a Tele the attack part is more pronounced and the sustain level is lower compared to a Les Paul where the sustain level is much higher and the attack less pronounced.

Timbre can also contribute to twang. There's a kind of dipthong effect as higher frequencies bleed out of the string faster than lower frequencies.

Usually when we talk about tone we're thinking about the mix of lo/mid/hi frequencies which make up a timbre but the envelope is actually more important to the character of a sound. If you've ever mucked around with an analogue synth you'll have had a eureka moment when you discover that changing the attack/decay/sustain/release can turn a piano sound into a woodwind sound. Same timbre, different envelope, and it's a whole new sound.

You could say that envelope is most affected by construction and timbre is most affected by the electromagnetic bits (pickups & amp) - but not exclusively so. Each can also affect the other.

To get back to wood type, different woods have different damping properties (even different samples of the same wood type will have different properties). Damping affects the way energy is sucked out of the strings, and hence the tone.

That's just one part of the chain though. In the end electric guitar tone is a mix of many variables which all play a part. It's your job as a player to tweak away until you create a rich, responsive, musical sound.

Personally, I'd never compromise on good amps and pickups but I'm less certain about "magic" wood and expensive guitars. It can make a difference - sure - but IMO it's a small difference in the scheme of things . Sometimes small differences are important though. That's up to you. I'd happily spend thousands of dollars on the "best" guitars if I could afford it, but I'm also happy to play any reasonably well-made mid-range guitar. With a good amp and custom-designed pickups, I'm pretty sure I could get a good sound out of it.

[Alter]

My opinion is that, of course not as much as with an acoustic, but woods do matter on an electric. Thats what an electric guitar is, woods put together.

I never pay much attention to electric stuff, pickups, tuning keys etc when looking at an electric guitar. I know the differences in pickups, active, passive, noiseless, low-output etc, same thing with different values for say capacitors in volume pots and stuff. Different setups also. Every school of electric guitar making, strat types, teles, super strats, les pauls, semi hollow guitars, etc has its own sound and function, just as stop tailpieces, floating bridges, tremolos and so on do. Sometimes you might encounter vintage or unusually good sounding pickups on a guitar, but thats about it.

And as soon as you find out what you like or need, lets say you are looking for a good strat with a stop tailpiece, vintage fender (or put in any brand you like) pickups and standard electronics, what is going to make the difference between the ones you try? The mediocre ones, the fewer good ones, and the one that stands out (and hopefully you end up buying?).

To me its only the woods and how they sound. Might be the kind of wood, might be the particular piece of wood, how it's aged, might be the way the different pieces play together, whatever. Of course i will try it amplified also (and only after a few gigs i m usually able to tell), but i ve yet to find an electric that sounds brilliantly unplugged and doesnt deliver when amplified. Note complexity, articulation, evenness, richness of sound, even dead spots you can hear them all with an electric unplugged.

If it wasnt for the woods we would all be a lot richer! Just buy a couple of cheap chinese squiers, put fancy electronics and there you go. The perfect guitar. Alas..

[royd]

Originally Posted by Garthman

But I think Royd's statement perpetuates the myth that the PUs somehow "amplify" the acoustic sound of an electric guitar - which is not so.

. . . "first and foremost acoustic intruments"? I don't think so.

what in the world do they pick up then if not the acoustic sound of the guitar? Seriously. If the pickups are not picking up the acoustic sound of the guitar, where does the sound come from? And as I said, if it ain't there in the acoustic sound... no pickup can add it to the amplified sound. Different pickups are more sensitive to various parts of the envelope and amplifiers modify the signal that is coming to them, but nowhere in the line (unless you're using modeling) does something get added that is not there to start with.

So, I'll say it again... an electric guitar is first and foremost an acoustic instrument. I have never played an electric guitar that sounded good plugged in that sounded dead acoustically and the best sounding electrics all had a liveliness to them that felt and sounded like a good acoustic guitar.

[moon]

What the pickup "sees" is a disturbance in a magnetic field caused by vibrating strings. So, strictly speaking, pickups don't pickup sound.

In an acoustic guitar, the body produces the tone. It pumps air out through the soundhole as well as giving off some sound from the top etc directly. None of that matters one bit to an electric where the body only influences the strings rather than creates the sound.

Overall, I'd say the effect of the body is quite subtle but the effect of pickups is much more dramatic. It's like adding in a low pass filter and a parametric EQ set to boost a specific frequency band. And then there's the amp and cab still to come as well...

[alnico5]

Originally Posted by royd

what in the world do they pick up then if not the acoustic sound of the guitar? Seriously. If the pickups are not picking up the acoustic sound of the guitar, where does the sound come from? And as I said, if it ain't there in the acoustic sound... no pickup can add it to the amplified sound. Different pickups are more sensitive to various parts of the envelope and amplifiers modify the signal that is coming to them, but nowhere in the line (unless you're using modeling) does something get added that is not there to start with.

So, I'll say it again... an electric guitar is first and foremost an acoustic instrument. I have never played an electric guitar that sounded good plugged in that sounded dead acoustically and the best sounding electrics all had a liveliness to them that felt and sounded like a good acoustic guitar.

Your electric guitar strings generate a very weak electric signal via the PUs. It is then preamped and sent through your amp's tone circuits and amplifier which changes the crap out of it and on to the speaker which starts air moving, also having a BIG influence. I'd say the sound is heavily processed, adding/subtracting frequencies. Electric guitars are artificial sound producers.

When we think about electric guitars we think about the wood. That is the pretty part and the part we pay the most bucks for. I think most of us want to think it makes a big difference.

I play my Carvin solid body maple electric unplugged all the time in a quiet room and think it sounds quite nice "acoustically" for a pretty plank of wood.

Thanks everyone for the thought provoking posts!

[alnico5]

Originally Posted by moon

Energy bleeds out of the strings at the nut (or frets) and bridge into the instrument and feeds back into the strings from the instrument at the same points. This is how the guitar construction (neck, body & fittings) affects the tone.

I'll need to take a detour for a moment to explain some terms.

You could say that all sounds can be defined by their volume envelope and timbre. A plucked string has a fast initial attack, fast initial decay, and then a sustained level which decays more slowly. In a twangy guitar like a Tele the attack part is more pronounced and the sustain level is lower compared to a Les Paul where the sustain level is much higher and the attack less pronounced.

Timbre can also contribute to twang. There's a kind of dipthong effect as higher frequencies bleed out of the string faster than lower frequencies.

Usually when we talk about tone we're thinking about the mix of lo/mid/hi frequencies which make up a timbre but the envelope is actually more important to the character of a sound. If you've ever mucked around with an analogue synth you'll have had a eureka moment when you discover that changing the attack/decay/sustain/release can turn a piano sound into a woodwind sound. Same timbre, different envelope, and it's a whole new sound.

You could say that envelope is most affected by construction and timbre is most affected by the electromagnetic bits (pickups & amp) - but not exclusively so. Each can also affect the other.

To get back to wood type, different woods have different damping properties (even different samples of the same wood type will have different properties). Damping affects the way energy is sucked out of the strings, and hence the tone.

That's just one part of the chain though. In the end electric guitar tone is a mix of many variables which all play a part. It's your job as a player to tweak away until you create a rich, responsive, musical sound.

Personally, I'd never compromise on good amps and pickups but I'm less certain about "magic" wood and expensive guitars. It can make a difference - sure - but IMO it's a small difference in the scheme of things . Sometimes small differences are important though. That's up to you. I'd happily spend thousands of dollars on the "best" guitars if I could afford it, but I'm also happy to play any reasonably well-made mid-range guitar. With a good amp and custom-designed pickups, I'm pretty sure I could get a good sound out of it.

Good points. We seem to agree on the importance of wood here. I might go so far as to say an electric guitar is closer to a synth than an acoustic guitar.

[moon]

You also have to think about the context in which the question is asked. If you were an established musician and you know your sound, you'll have techs who'll fit the best examples of your style of pickups on command, as well as the best available amps for your sound etc. Wood as a variable rises in importance but only because the others have been constrained.

So I think we sometimes end up talking at cross-purposes a little bit in these "wood wars". Technically, the full range of pickup types covers a huge range of different sounds but if you've already chosen - say - PAF's as your thing then the only variation you'll get from pickups are the subtle differences from different manufacturers who are all following a similar basic design.

[Garthman]

Originally Posted by royd

what in the world do they pick up then if not the acoustic sound of the guitar? Seriously. If the pickups are not picking up the acoustic sound of the guitar, where does the sound come from? And as I said, if it ain't there in the acoustic sound... no pickup can add it to the amplified sound. Different pickups are more sensitive to various parts of the envelope and amplifiers modify the signal that is coming to them, but nowhere in the line (unless you're using modeling) does something get added that is not there to start with.

So, I'll say it again... an electric guitar is first and foremost an acoustic instrument. I have never played an electric guitar that sounded good plugged in that sounded dead acoustically and the best sounding electrics all had a liveliness to them that felt and sounded like a good acoustic guitar.

Moon and Alnico have already answered the question:

"What the pickup "sees" is a disturbance in a magnetic field caused by vibrating strings. So, strictly speaking, pickups don't pickup sound . . "

"Your electric guitar strings generate a very weak electric signal via the PUs. It is then preamped and sent through your amp's tone circuits and amplifier . . "


It's all down to a principle called "electromagnet induction". I gave a brief description of how it works for pick ups (and some links for a full explanation of the principle) in post #57 of this thread. Have a read.