OK... What Am I Missing?

[calvanesebob]

Why doesn't my guitar sound the same recorded (or through the headphones) then it does coming out the speakers?

Here is my signal chain...

Guitar going to an LR Baggs venue DI
Venue DI going into an EV 30M
EV 30M going into a Focusrite 18i8
Recording with Ableton Live 10 Lite

Listening through the headphones it sounds way different then the speakers.

Do I have to mic the speakers maybe, and run the mic into the Focusrite?

Any tips would be helpful.

[pieterh]

Some suggestions come to mind:

1) when listening to the EV you are also hearing the guitar acoustically which will always affect your subjective experience.

2) the room acoustics will also affect your subjective experience and reflections in the room will mix in with the direct sound from the speaker(s) whereas this doesn’t happen when listening on headphones.

3) The EV mixer section has some processing for the speaker which is independent of the xkr out you are using to connect to the interface/sound card. I notice from the specs that there are two xlr-outs, one “mix” one “aux”. Maybe check what settings you are using with the EV and then what is being sent to the interface and DAW.

[VinceM]

I've spent a bunch of time working on getting a good direct recorded tone. It helps to have a decent set of monitoring headphones and dial in the direct tone via headphones. For your rig, I'd just take the Baggs Venue DI and go into the recorder and work with that. Then after you record listen to it on different sound systems and see what you think and adjust from there. The car is a great place to audition recordings!

[calvanesebob]

Originally Posted by pieterh

Some suggestions come to mind:

1) when listening to the EV you are also hearing the guitar acoustically which will always affect your subjective experience.

2) the room acoustics will also affect your subjective experience and reflections in the room will mix in with the direct sound from the speaker(s) whereas this doesn’t happen when listening on headphones.

3) The EV mixer section has some processing for the speaker which is independent of the xkr out you are using to connect to the interface/sound card. I notice from the specs that there are two xlr-outs, one “mix” one “aux”. Maybe check what settings you are using with the EV and then what is being sent to the interface and DAW.

Yeah i have the "aux" out running to my interface, but I have it set to include the effects in that signal. It's probably what you are saying about the room acoustics as my room is very reflective. I was trying to mic the 30M, but that is a whole nother challenge because of separation of the base speaker from the line array section. I could maybe run the "aux" out to the input of my loudbox mini, and mic that directly into my recording interface.

[calvanesebob]

Originally Posted by VinceM

I've spent a bunch of time working on getting a good direct recorded tone. It helps to have a decent set of monitoring headphones and dial in the direct tone via headphones. For your rig, I'd just take the Baggs Venue DI and go into the recorder and work with that. Then after you record listen to it on different sound systems and see what you think and adjust from there. The car is a great place to audition recordings!

Yeah, but I am trying to reproduce the sound that is coming out of my 30M's speakers. It sounds so wonderful compared to what I am hearing through the headphones from my recording interface.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by calvanesebob

Why doesn't my guitar sound the same recorded (or through the headphones) then it does coming out the speakers?

Here is my signal chain...

Guitar going to an LR Baggs venue DI
Venue DI going into an EV 30M
EV 30M going into a Focusrite 18i8
Recording with Ableton Live 10 Lite

Listening through the headphones it sounds way different then the speakers.

Do I have to mic the speakers maybe, and run the mic into the Focusrite?

Any tips would be helpful.

I'm not entirely sure what you're doing from this. You're playing thru the EV, and taking a DI out of it to record? That means you're basically recording the direct pickup sound (possibly post some EQ from the EV), but hearing the sound of the EV in the room. Both the amp and the room color the sound, but what you're recording doesn't include that. Also, unless you playing at ear-bleed levels, you are hearing at least some of your acoustic sound while you play, which makes you think the EV sound is better than it is. This bleed of the direct acoustic sound fools everyone all the time. If you're hearing 90% the amplified sound and 10% your direct acoustic sound, that's enough to totally warp your perspective.

If you were to play your recording back thru the amp, you'd likely get a sound that's closer to what you hear (except for missing the actual acoustic sound of the guitar).

Personally, I'd never record myself playing thru an amp. Turn off the amp, plug a mic into the Focusrite, put the mic in front of your guitar. That's bound to sound better (once you learn how to do it) than any pickup/amp recording.

As far as headphones vs speaker, yeah, of course. Even two different sets of studio monitors will sound different. Play a recording back in your car or home stereo or your phone. All will sound different. Headphones and speakers are likely to be very different, two totally different ways to listen to music.

[martingitdave]

It never sounds as good direct as it does through the PA. That's the magic of pickups. :-)

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

It never sounds as good direct as it does through the PA. That's the magic of pickups. :-)

I'd say it's actually the magic of speakers! PA speakers color the sound, and smooth out all those nasty artifacts that come from pickups. Then room acoustics and our ears/brains do the rest to convince us that it sounds OK. Add in some distractions, like the direct of the guitar or people talking, etc, in a performance situation and we're happy. Studio monitors are meant to not color the sound and show us what's really there, including the actual sound of a pickup for better or worse (usually worse).

[martingitdave]

Indeed! I stand corrected.

[calvanesebob]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I'm not entirely sure what you're doing from this. You're playing thru the EV, and taking a DI out of it to record? That means you're basically recording the direct pickup sound (possibly post some EQ from the EV), but hearing the sound of the EV in the room. Both the amp and the room color the sound, but what you're recording doesn't include that. Also, unless you playing at ear-bleed levels, you are hearing at least some of your acoustic sound while you play, which makes you think the EV sound is better than it is. This bleed of the direct acoustic sound fools everyone all the time. If you're hearing 90% the amplified sound and 10% your direct acoustic sound, that's enough to totally warp your perspective.

If you were to play your recording back thru the amp, you'd likely get a sound that's closer to what you hear (except for missing the actual acoustic sound of the guitar).

Personally, I'd never record myself playing thru an amp. Turn off the amp, plug a mic into the Focusrite, put the mic in front of your guitar. That's bound to sound better (once you learn how to do it) than any pickup/amp recording.

As far as headphones vs speaker, yeah, of course. Even two different sets of studio monitors will sound different. Play a recording back in your car or home stereo or your phone. All will sound different. Headphones and speakers are likely to be very different, two totally different ways to listen to music.

I'm going from guitar to DI to EV to Focusrite. The aux out on the EV has an option to send the signal out with or without effects/eq. I have it set to send it with the effects/eq, so I could attempt to get the same wonderful sound as the EV is putting out into the room. I see what you mean about the room acoustics and how different it makes things. I do get a good sound through the headphones, just not as good as what I hear in the room.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by calvanesebob

I'm going from guitar to DI to EV to Focusrite. The aux out on the EV has an option to send the signal out with or without effects/eq. I have it set to send it with the effects/eq, so I could attempt to get the same wonderful sound as the EV is putting out into the room. I see what you mean about the room acoustics and how different it makes things. I do get a good sound through the headphones, just not as good as what I hear in the room.

Right, so you're using the amp/PA as a "DI", taking it's direct output into your recorder. So you're basically hearing the raw pickup (with a bit of EQ from your amp) on the recording. Live, you're hearing the speaker, which will have a huge impact on sound and round off the rough edges of a pickup, modified by the room acoustics, and then you're also hearing at least a bit of the natural acoustic (unamplified) sound.

This happens all the time. I'll audition a new pickup, plug it into my studio interface, listening over my monitors, and almost always I'll think "hey, this new pickup sounds pretty good!". Hit record, play back, and it's "Man, this pickup sounds like crap". What happened? There's a huge difference between hearing the amplified sound while at the same time hearing the "bleed" from the direct guitar sound and what's actually coming out of the pickup. It only takes a tiny bit of the natural guitar sound to mask how bad a pickup usually sounds by itself.

If your goal is to capture what an audience hears at a live performance, put the PA/Amp far away from you and mic the amp. That's going to be far from perfect, since mics pick up the sound of a room differently than our ears, but with some experimenting on mic placement, you may get some semblance of what the audience hears. If your goal is to create a recording that sounds like most commercial guitar recordings, ditch the pickup and amp and use a mic directly on the guitar.

[calvanesebob]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Right, so you're using the amp/PA as a "DI", taking it's direct output into your recorder. So you're basically hearing the raw pickup (with a bit of EQ from your amp) on the recording. Live, you're hearing the speaker, which will have a huge impact on sound and round off the rough edges of a pickup, modified by the room acoustics, and then you're also hearing at least a bit of the natural acoustic (unamplified) sound.

This happens all the time. I'll audition a new pickup, plug it into my studio interface, listening over my monitors, and almost always I'll think "hey, this new pickup sounds pretty good!". Hit record, play back, and it's "Man, this pickup sounds like crap". What happened? There's a huge difference between hearing the amplified sound while at the same time hearing the "bleed" from the direct guitar sound and what's actually coming out of the pickup. It only takes a tiny bit of the natural guitar sound to mask how bad a pickup usually sounds by itself.

If your goal is to capture what an audience hears at a live performance, put the PA/Amp far away from you and mic the amp. That's going to be far from perfect, since mics pick up the sound of a room differently than our ears, but with some experimenting on mic placement, you may get some semblance of what the audience hears. If your goal is to create a recording that sounds like most commercial guitar recordings, ditch the pickup and amp and use a mic directly on the guitar.

This all makes sense and thank you for your feedback. I will try experimenting with mic placement. I have an Aston Spirit, so I think I may be able to get some fairly good results with that.

Thanks again.

[david57strat]

What kind of pickup is installed in your acoustic guitar?

Do you have reverb dialed into your 30Ms? Whatever is dialed in there (if committed to the recording) may be deceiving, since your "live" sound includes the ambient sound of the room, itself. As others have mentioned, your actual raw acoustic sound is also is probably at least somewhat audible to you, when playing live, and that is a completely different sound than what you're getting direct, since you're not miking up the guitar, but going direct, not having the benefit of the natural sound of the acoustic guitar, combined with the live sound of the room, itself.

Some acoustic guitar pickups can sound kind of sterile/metallic - not very natural sounding. A flurry of effects (including EQ) and the direct/reflected speaker sound in the room tends to take the edge off of that and sound better than the raw pickup, itself (if it's not a great one), which can lead to disappointing results, in a recording. Remember, when you play live, you're hearing the room, as much as you're hearing your effects and the guitar. It plays a huge part in the overall sound, at a live venue.

Is whatever you EQ'd into the system being committed to the recording, or your recording output on the 30Ms pre-EQ? What sounds good in a live room, may sound awful, direct to a recording interface. I also have an 18i8 and absolutely love it. I had to dial in my EQ very differently, to record, than if I were playing live, though. I generally go through a pedalboard with nice effects and go directly out of that board into the interface, which gives me great results. I don't use plug-ins, and have invested so much in nice peals, in a stereo rig, and I wanted to take advantage of them pulling double duty, rather than trying to emulate them with aftermarket plug-ins. Not exactly the conventional way to to record digitally to a computer, but it works for me - so far. The same goes for my electric setup.

Are you depending solely on the built-in effects from the 30M for your plugged-in acoustic "live" sound, or other effects (pedals, or whatever)?

If you're recording with an 18i8, you can record four tracks simultaneously (one of the reasons I bought the 18i8). You could take a stereo mix of your guitar/line outs (assuming the 30M has stereo outputs on the panel, or you're using a pair of them), and also use two live microphones (placed strategically to capture that live room sound), panned off to stereo (and directly plugged into the interface), and later combine/mix the direct and microphone sounds to your liking, since you're liking the sound in the room at the venue - kind of the best of both worlds. It would mean more cabling and a couple of mike stands, but I think it would sound better than if you just miked up the speakers, themselves. Worth a try, if the venue allows for that kind of microphone placement.

Good luck! :-)

[calvanesebob]

Originally Posted by david57strat

What kind of pickup is installed in your acoustic guitar?

Do you have reverb dialed into your 30Ms? Whatever is dialed in there (if committed to the recording) may be deceiving, since your "live" sound includes the ambient sound of the room, itself. As others have mentioned, your actual raw acoustic sound is also is probably at least somewhat audible to you, when playing live, and that is a completely different sound than what you're getting direct, since you're not miking up the guitar, but going direct, not having the benefit of the natural sound of the acoustic guitar, combined with the live sound of the room, itself.

Some acoustic guitar pickups can sound kind of sterile/metallic - not very natural sounding. A flurry of effects (including EQ) and the direct/reflected speaker sound in the room tends to take the edge off of that and sound better than the raw pickup, itself (if it's not a great one), which can lead to disappointing results, in a recording. Remember, when you play live, you're hearing the room, as much as you're hearing your effects and the guitar. It plays a huge part in the overall sound, at a live venue.

Is whatever you EQ'd into the system being committed to the recording, or your recording output on the 30Ms pre-EQ? What sounds good in a live room, may sound awful, direct to a recording interface. I also have an 18i8 and absolutely love it. I had to dial in my EQ very differently, to record, than if I were playing live, though. I generally go through a pedalboard with nice effects and go directly out of that board into the interface, which gives me great results. I don't use plug-ins, and have invested so much in nice peals, in a stereo rig, and I wanted to take advantage of them pulling double duty, rather than trying to emulate them with aftermarket plug-ins. Not exactly the conventional way to to record digitally to a computer, but it works for me - so far. The same goes for my electric setup.

Are you depending solely on the built-in effects from the 30M for your plugged-in acoustic "live" sound, or other effects (pedals, or whatever)?

If you're recording with an 18i8, you can record four tracks simultaneously (one of the reasons I bought the 18i8). You could take a stereo mix of your guitar/line outs (assuming the 30M has stereo outputs on the panel, or you're using a pair of them), and also use two live microphones (placed strategically to capture that live room sound), panned off to stereo (and directly plugged into the interface), and later combine/mix the direct and microphone sounds to your liking, since you're liking the sound in the room at the venue - kind of the best of both worlds. It would mean more cabling and a couple of mike stands, but I think it would sound better than if you just miked up the speakers, themselves. Worth a try, if the venue allows for that kind of microphone placement.

Good luck! :-)

I am just using the effects from the 30M. Just trying to keep it simple in case I start going to open mic nights in the future.

I am also experimenting with a few different pickups.
LR Baggs M80
Schatten HFN
K&L Pure Mini

These will be the least obtrusive to my D-28, and I don't want to use any under saddle pickups because I don't want anything between my saddle and bridge except bone and wood.

So far I have been judging these pickups by what I hear coming out of the EV speakers, but now that I know there is so much of a difference between that and the raw pickup sound, I will judge by both headphones and the speakers. I will be using my LR Baggs venue DI between the guitar and the EV to get the best sound out of these pickups.

Thank you for your input too.

[sam.spoons]

A decent, well placed, mic in a good room (almost never a domestic living room) will always sound best but if you need to record a DI from the pickup then it can be done and sound very good. I would suggest the K&K teamed with a Tone Dexter preamp. I use a BigTone piezo bridge on my gypsy jazz guitar through a Tone Dexter and the sound is almost indistinguishable to the miked sound*. Getting the right IR (wave map in TD terminology) is potentially a bit of a process but definitely possible and well worth the effort.

* Different too rather than inferior, the missing room ambience gives the TD sound away compared to a mic recording.