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Tonedexter with TRS Cable - Taylor Expression System?
Hi all,
My Tonedexter is great with my Yairi DY75 and Nanoflex UST (DiMarzio The Angel™ PZ) - however, in my church another guy uses my TD with a Taylor Acoustic which has an ES(2?) (expression system) fitted - which has a REALLY low output. As far as I can tell, his Taylor ES is designed to be used with a TRS to TRS (or TRS to XLR) cable, with the idea being that it gets plugged directly into a PA system. I didn't know this (originally) and thus the Taylor has been 'trained' in the Tonedexter with a TS cable and played live with a TS cable. (Obviously the gain on the TD has been 'cranked up' to compensate). The sound is a bit metallic and a bit thin. Nothing like the Yairi sounds plugged in. So basically what are my options? 1. Can the TD accept a balanced (TRS) cable signal 2. Can I make/buy a 'modified' cable to address the situation (TD website says: "1/4″ pickup input, 1MΩ (or 10MΩ with cable mod") or use 'Audix T50K Impedance Matching Transformer'. 3. Can I somehow load a 'premade' Wave Map for this model of guitar that's had a better process than using a TS cable in a TRS output? (e.g. use a PC and Audio interface and Cuki's IR program to make an IR via a TRS cable...) 4. Does using a TS cable make absolutely no diffence to the 'plugged in guitar' Tone and it's ONLY a question of volume/gain? (because the guitar sounds terrible to be honest). 5. Or is the ES (2?) system only designed to be used with balanced TRS cables and using TS is guaranteed to sound bad....? Thanks for any insight or advice anyone can offer Last edited by JazzyJ; 06-03-2023 at 03:07 AM. |
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Has the TD been trained with the Taylor?
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#3
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Some would argue that this is what a Taylor actually sounds like and the ToneDexter is just the messenger.
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#4
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Yes.
But I think I've found (at least 'a bit') of the answer - it's a question of IMPEDANCE: 1. The Taylor is outputing a BALANCED LOW-Z signal 2. The ToneDexter is expecting an UNBALANCED HI-Z signal. Solution: Taylor Output = TRS to XLR (male) cable then use an 'Audix T50K Impedance Matching Transformer' - which is a Female XLR to a TS and will make the signal a HI-Z one. So a TRS gets plugged into the Taylor and via a Matching Transformer you get a Hi-Z TS to go into guitar pedals. More money, more cables, more grief - but it is however a HI-Z signal like every other guitar preamp...... |
#5
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That's a good point and I have thought about that! But that being said, it would be interesting to hear what the Taylor through the TD would sound like if an UNBALANCED HI-Z signal was fed into the TD during the training stage.... (rather than currently an TS cable plugged into the Taylor TRS)
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#7
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Quote:
This doc from Taylor talks about Low Impedance TRS... https://www.taylorguitars.com/sites/...standingES.pdf "Connections The Taylor ES is designed to be plugged-in using a standard quarter-inch guitar cable, which will work in every circumstance: with an acoustic guitar amplifier, a standard direct box, or any other guitar-ready application. The ES also is designed to be “Pro Ready,” which means it can be plugged directly into a “balanced line level input” such as an input on a mixer using a TRS to XLR cable. The result is a higher signal level, which translates into the ability to drive long cable distances without any frequency loss, due to the low impedance of the system. With this application, you can plug directly into a stage snake or recording/mixing console without the use of a direct box". It does state that you can also use a TS cable (which I am) - but doesn't mention that you'll suffer an astronomical volume drop if you do and that the 'higher signal level' they talk about then using TRS->XLR is the same level as 99% of acoustic guitars when using a TS lead! Last edited by JazzyJ; 06-03-2023 at 06:21 AM. |
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The ES-1 was designed to primarily be used as a low impedance, balanced source with the high impedance, unbalance option as backup option. It caused confusion and consternation from the start because it wasnt like everyone else's unbalance, high-z system and didn't make sense to many guitarists. The ES-2 incorporated some improvements with a move to unbalanced.
Meanwhile, the early ES-1 also suffered from a tone balance that was exactly what you described: thin and metallic. It was revised several times and got rid of most of that before the switch to E-1. One plus is that the ES-2 system can be retrofitted to ES-1-equipped guitars. It sounds to me like you've got some version of the ES-1 system. If you don't want to do that you could pick up a used Taylor K-4 preamp/EQ on eBay or Reverb that properly matches your ES-1. Get the guitar to sound the way you want with the K-4 and run that into the ToneDexter. More on the K-4, HERE. Bob
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#9
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ToneDexters also had some kind of switch on a TRS jack that would change the input impedance when a TRS plug was inserted. Not sure of the details, but I seem to recall that it would actually increase the impedance to a 1M to support K&Ks and similar. I would use a straight 1/4" TS cable to keep its impedance lower, since you're not plugging a passive pickup in, and don't need the low-impedance mode they've designed in for a long cable run.
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Post edited due to learning more and finding out I was wrong about something.
Input impedance: 1M Ohm for a TS lead 10M Ohm for a TRS plug (not “cable”) with the ring not connected. This suggests (to me): - The TRS input expects a TS plug on the other end - Plugging a balanced (TRS-TRS) lead into the TD might result in just the situation you describe. Solution - use a TS-TS lead.
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Give a man a fishing rod... and he's got the makings of a rudimentary banjo. Last edited by shufflebeat; 06-03-2023 at 02:20 PM. |
#11
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Looking at the circuit diagram in the manual, the Pickup input is TS.
So (unless the diagram is incorrect) feeding that with anything other than an unbalanced signal is pointless.
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#12
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Quote:
https://h4o15b.a2cdn1.secureserver.n...uide_v20_1.pdf This is the reason I edited my previous post.
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Give a man a fishing rod... and he's got the makings of a rudimentary banjo. Last edited by shufflebeat; 06-03-2023 at 05:45 PM. |
#13
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If it is indeed a Taylor ES1 pickup, then it probably isn't a good candidate to work with ToneDexter anyways. The ES1 was a magnetic pickup, the ToneDexter website specifically states that it doesn't work well with magnetic pickups including the ES1.
If it's an ES2, that's a proprietary piezo sensor-based system, that should work OK once you get the output signal sorted out. Last edited by BlueStarfish; 06-04-2023 at 09:23 PM. Reason: Typo |
#14
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This is also true but it should be noted that, for those of us who aren’t fans of magnetic pickups, the outcome is still an improvement. Not to James May’s standard but still a result.
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Give a man a fishing rod... and he's got the makings of a rudimentary banjo. |
#15
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Update - the guitar is a Feb 2022 Taylor 214ce-k sb with an ES2.
Having searched the forum, I've found info about FOUR different versions of the ES2 : 2013 ES2 - HOT! 2014 - 2015 ES2 - Still powerful but with a bit less output and less string squeak. 2016 to 2017 - A bit less output than the 2014 - 2015 version but a bit mellower and more pleasant sounding. 2018 to 2019 - Greatly reduced output compared to any previous versions of ES2. The newest ES2 circuit board is also physically about half the width of the earlier ES2 circuit boards. The guitar in question has the 'greatly reduced' output. Also it's not a 'balanced' jack anymore (on the ES2) so no 'magic volume' is going to appear by using a TRS to XLR and an impedance matcher. It's the lowest output of any electro acoustic I've ever come across, to a point that it's like a passive UST. I'm amazed that there's acutally a preamp and battery in the guitar! It's a shame. My next thoughts are whether it's possible to fit a K&K mini without disturbing the ES2. If the ES2 is ultimately in the same ballpark as a passive SBT or UST then might as well get something that sounds decent! I'm wondering if it's possible to: 1) Replace the Taylor JACK Socket with a BALANCED (TRS input) 2) Wire the ES2 to be used with a TRS jack (TRS to TS cable) 3) Wire the K&K to be used with a TS Jack (TS to TS) Would that work or is something similar possible? So rather than having an actual 'switch' to change between ES2 and K&K you coud select which one you want to by using a TS->TS or a TRS-> TS cable? UPDATE Looks like the Jack input is mounted on a PCB so could be a nightmare trying to go 'balanced'. I give up. Last edited by JazzyJ; 06-05-2023 at 06:53 AM. |