From thin to thick: a picky topic

[bufflehead]

In the days of yore I conceived of a Fender Thin as a thin pick. Nowadays, my thin picks are Fender Mediums.

Gotta say, as much as I prefer the BlueChip TP-40s, it's nice to slip back into the comfort zone once in a while with Fender Medium 346s. You lose some speed there, but gain some forgiveness.

[SixStringers]

So a bow is an apple and a pick is an orange... ridiculous in the context made.
They both elicit the sound from the strings of their respective instrument, and in this sense their influence is comparable. Keep things in context and you'll learn more.

Another here said the recommended price for a bow is ⅓ the price of the violin, I did not know that. Obviously no one is going to pay $500 for a pick. But as he also said... $40 for a pick that brings out the best from your guitar is a by compare a bargain, and it is. Poor violinist.

Wegen Picks, I read he is in dental (dentures) and it is thought he uses denture material, in which case he is casting the picks and then finishing on a debur and polish wheel.

Ebony pick: Wood is good, Bloodwood is nearly as hard as Ebony. As for selecting a pick to record with... UHMW-PE makes zero pick noise. Try one.

Gravity... acrylic... as with all acrylic picks... the intonation is off balance. And they Chirp. But they are fast and accurate.

Dunlop Tortex... thank god you finally got away from that commodity pick and got yourself a pick that brings out so much more from your guitar and you.

Primetone and BlueChip are not the same, and not that close either. BC's play a lot faster with less pick noise, albeit the Primetone has more volume. Not saying Primetone is a bad pick... just saying that comparing it to a BC is a stretch.

Charmed Life... makes thin picks from Vespel SP1 which to my observation is not the same Vespel that BC uses. CL also makes thin PEEK picks. If you want a thin Vespel SP1, know that this is not what BC is using, also know that SP1 makes a great thin pick, well worth the price. Thin PEEK picks are in my opinion even better than thin SP1 picks. PEEK has more voice and volume, less pic noise if any in the thins, is as fast if not faster and has measurable control advantage, and last as long too. I've played both thin SP1 and PEEK... .49mm to 1mm... PEEK wins in my book.

[SixStringers]

BC 40's TP or otherwise are .04" just shy more than 1mm. The Fender medium is well short of that. If I'm not mistaken, I could be, but I think those are .86mm

The difference between .86 and 1mm is a lot. True with all thin pick graduations of gauge.
Not so true between say a 2mm and a 2.2mm, might even stretch that to 2.5

There is a reason thin picks increments of gauge are smaller than for thicker picks... the increments are much more noticeable between thins in play and tone.

That said, thin picks, 73mm or less are floppy sloppy with the common commodity materials, but Vespel SP1 and PEEK, and PPSU if you can find one, and Polycarbonate, also hard to find in thin, do not surrender control for speed, they are as fast if not faster than any commodity material and stiffer, not brittle, so that you also get the lead control and accuracy along with the speed strumming.

Ever observe that Tortex... (popular in the thins) at 1mm + sound and play terrible... slow, noisy, dulled sound. Commodity materials do that, nylon too... but the high tech materials, SP1, PEEK, do not... they change tone as they thicken, depends on the strike point width and bevel angel too, so I say this when all are equal so that context is not misunderstood.

For a long time I used Tortex... my excuse... I assumed a pick is a pick, never gave it a thought until I borrowed a real pick... the light bulb lit up and I never played Tortex again, and never will. Same for Nylon. Since then I have gotten deep into picks... once thought to be so simple and insignificant, there is a lot to know. I understand if you disagree because I was there before too. Not anymore.

[Charmed Life Picks]

Originally Posted by SixStringers

So a bow is an apple and a pick is an orange... ridiculous in the context made.
They both elicit the sound from the strings of their respective instrument, and in this sense their influence is comparable. Keep things in context and you'll learn more.

Another here said the recommended price for a bow is ⅓ the price of the violin, I did not know that. Obviously no one is going to pay $500 for a pick. But as he also said... $40 for a pick that brings out the best from your guitar is a by compare a bargain, and it is. Poor violinist.

Wegen Picks, I read he is in dental (dentures) and it is thought he uses denture material, in which case he is casting the picks and then finishing on a debur and polish wheel.

Ebony pick: Wood is good, Bloodwood is nearly as hard as Ebony. As for selecting a pick to record with... UHMW-PE makes zero pick noise. Try one.

Gravity... acrylic... as with all acrylic picks... the intonation is off balance. And they Chirp. But they are fast and accurate.

Dunlop Tortex... thank god you finally got away from that commodity pick and got yourself a pick that brings out so much more from your guitar and you.

Primetone and BlueChip are not the same, and not that close either. BC's play a lot faster with less pick noise, albeit the Primetone has more volume. Not saying Primetone is a bad pick... just saying that comparing it to a BC is a stretch.

Charmed Life... makes thin picks from Vespel SP1 which to my observation is not the same Vespel that BC uses. CL also makes thin PEEK picks. If you want a thin Vespel SP1, know that this is not what BC is using, also know that SP1 makes a great thin pick, well worth the price. Thin PEEK picks are in my opinion even better than thin SP1 picks. PEEK has more voice and volume, less pic noise if any in the thins, is as fast if not faster and has measurable control advantage, and last as long too. I've played both thin SP1 and PEEK... .49mm to 1mm... PEEK wins in my book.

PEEK is an awesome picking material. Most players find it a little less "dark" or "muted" than Vespel. However, most people also play both. What PEEK does is cut a little more in the mix while still remaining warm, quiet and smooth.

I try to stay out of these discussions, but just to correct facts, we've been using authentic DuPont Vespel SP-1 for more than six years. I can't say what others are using, and you may ask them, but this is what we use, and have always used six early 2016.

There are about half a dozen other companies that make polyimide plastics (DuPont's patent on the formulation ran out decades ago; all they've retained is the trade name Vespel). Their polyimides are about 20% cheaper than the DuPont material, and you tell right away because brown coloring is much lighter the Vespel -- milk chocolate vs dark chocolate -- but we don't use it.

SixStringers, if you want, send me a PM and I'll shoot you back some photos of the DuPont factory stickers still on our material. We also have the official factory certifications paperwork too ("certs"), which required if you're doing DOD or aerospace work.

Any material will sound thinner and a little brighter going from, say 1.0 mm to .75 mm.

Thanks, Everyone. Return to your regularly scheduled program.

Scott Memmer

[SixStringers]

I know you use SP1... but that cannot be what BC uses, I have some BCs, and I have made picks from SP1... definitely not the same as BCs Vespel... so it can only be that BC is using a filled Vespel, a crystalline filler which makes their picks more brittle.
Read a blurb once, guy says he used his BC to pry on something, it snapped in two... the guy was head down on that, did not blame BC, said he learned his lesson, a pick is a pick, not a pry tool. Hope others take note.

He would've been hard pressed to snap SP1. Would take two pair of pliers and crank the pick back and forth many numerous times.

[Charmed Life Picks]

Originally Posted by SixStringers

I know you use SP1... but that cannot be what BC uses, I have some BCs, and I have made picks from SP1... definitely not the same as BCs Vespel... so it can only be that BC is using a filled Vespel, a crystalline filler which makes their picks more brittle.
Read a blurb once, guy says he used his BC to pry on something, it snapped in two... the guy was head down on that, did not blame BC, said he learned his lesson, a pick is a pick, not a pry tool. Hope others take note.

He would've been hard pressed to snap SP1. Would take two pair of pliers and crank the pick back and forth many numerous times.

SS, unless something has changed, the only Vespel that comes from the factory in the chocolate brown color is SP-1. All the other "filled" polyimide grades are black or dark grey.

DuPont is notoriously difficult to do business with, very inflexible, but with the amount of business some vendors do with them, both inside and outside the pick industry, they might have enough pull to have a custom "filled" formulation done for them that is brown instead of black. Anything's possible. Enjoying the chat. You're clearly very knowledgeable.

Here's the exciting thing. There are more than a hundred aerospace/engineering plastics that have never been made into picks by anyone. We're at the very beginning of this thing.

sm

[SixStringers]

Yes Scott... I have not found chocolate brown filled Vespel. As you say, black or dark gray.

Nonetheless, the BC picks do not have the same characteristics as SP1.
Maybe they are not buying DuPont... everyone assumes that is the source, but DuPont's patent ran out long ago, others now make PI (polyimide) such as Meldin® 7001 Rods.

I know you know all of this, and more.

If a filler is used that would not change the brown color, it would be Teflon, it is a brittle material and is a lighter color that SP1 so can be colored to match if so desired.

Meanwhile, hope others catch on to the importance of a guitar pick... a cheap commodity pick makes a great guitar sound mediocre, a great pick brings out the best of even a mediocre guitar... for most it will sound like a different guitar they will like a lot more and hopefully then they will play more because it is more fun when it sounds good and plays good. The caveat is there... the guitar must be set up right before one can really pick up on the pick influence. (puns always intended)

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by SixStringers

...
Wegen Picks, I read he is in dental (dentures) and it is thought he uses denture material, in which case he is casting the picks and then finishing on a debur and polish wheel...

I expect that this is way off the mark! You just need to visit Michel's website and take a closer look at his picks to see that they are neither cast or polished. And he is certainly not a dentist! My guess is that he machines industrial nylon. If I was going to put a bet on the material then I would go for something like this :

https://www.directplastics.co.uk/nylon-6-sheet

I only hope that he keeps making them, because the M, Bluegrass and TF are great picks for my playing technique.

I have made my own picks from SP1, casein and TS (plus owned BC ones) and have picks in just about every material from a large number of pick makers.

[SixStringers]

As I said, it was just something I read.
I suppose you know better then...

If it is Nylon it would be Cast Nylon.
I have not worked with cast nylon, but the specs on it make it very similar to acetal which is Delrin/Tortex, albeit there is no such polymer called Tortex, that is a name Jim Dunlop came up with to persuade the market that he came up with the IT replacement for Hawksbill turtle shell. Clever guy... very good at marketing, he also was the first to color code gauges.

Anyhow, with almost identical properties to Acetal I doubt you would love the pick. So my guess based on material properties is that it is not nylon of any flavor, unless perhaps Teflon Filled, that would make on them brittle side and much faster play.

I read somewhere that Wegens can chip... ie: they are on the brittle side, he does not make thin ones, could be because they would be too easy to break.

[DownUpDave]

I really like Primetones in .88, 1.0 or 1.3. I wish they would stamp or engrave the size on them, that gold ink wears out. Someone said BC are a little warmer sounding then Primetones. If you like Primetones and want a bit warmer tone then use Dunlop Ultex, they also have less pick noise across the strings.

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by SixStringers

As I said, it was just something I read.
I suppose you know better then...

If it is Nylon it would be Cast Nylon.
I have not worked with cast nylon, but the specs on it make it very similar to acetal which is Delrin/Tortex, albeit there is no such polymer called Tortex, that is a name Jim Dunlop came up with to persuade the market that he came up with the IT replacement for Hawksbill turtle shell. Clever guy... very good at marketing, he also was the first to color code gauges.

Anyhow, with almost identical properties to Acetal I doubt you would love the pick. So my guess based on material properties is that it is not nylon of any flavor, unless perhaps Teflon Filled, that would make on them brittle side and much faster play.

I read somewhere that Wegens can chip... ie: they are on the brittle side, he does not make thin ones, could be because they would be too easy to break.

It is not that I know better....I just spent a little time trawling through the old versions of Michel Wegen's website on the Wayback Machine, looking at the early photos of the tools he used for pick making and reading statements like this from 22 years ago:

"It takes me almost one hour and a half sawing, milling, shaping and polishing to create a pick."

And photos like this from 18 years ago that show he was playing around with other easily available plastics:



At first, he only made the picks in white, then bought the same material in black.

And he is a model maker and artist for museums, advertising agencies, hospitals and public spaces etc. He links to some of his other work but there's no mention of dentistry on his website.

So it is just a bit of deduction over time, that's all. And only because I am interested in anything to do with picks.

I would like to make my own picks out of the same material that Michel uses, so I have been on the case for a while!

[Jim Comeaux]

I am convinced that the right pick for you, me or anyone else is what you feel comfortable with at the moment. If that changes from week to week or even hour to hour, so be it. If you like the sound in your ears and feel of the pick in your fingers, then that’s the pick for you. Remember, “Indecision is the KEY to versatility!” Besides trying out the new things is the fun part.

[Wellington]

I guess I'm crazy but primetones sound clicky to me in comparison to Dunlop tortex.

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by Jim Comeaux

I am convinced that the right pick for you, me or anyone else is what you feel comfortable with at the moment. If that changes from week to week or even hour to hour, so be it. If you like the sound in your ears and feel of the pick in your fingers, then that’s the pick for you. Remember, “Indecision is the KEY to versatility!” Besides trying out the new things is the fun part.

Very true Jim!

[TobyB]

+1 for Wegen's plectrums... for mando's of all sizes as well as guitars, great for flat-picking and the like.
But I also find yellow Dunlop's very useful ... for strumming, even orange for 12-strings.