Improved my Sonotone

[JackB1]

OK gotcha.

Originally Posted by lowrider

I think you got it wrong. If you remove the UST, you can make a shim to bring your saddle back up to height with a strip or two cut off of an old credit card.

[paddyd]

Originally Posted by jricc

Jack, I have heard of people doing this. I'm not sure about it working with the Sonitone "braid". However, I'd also like to hear from anyone who may have tried this.

On a side note, today I was in touch with Fishman about just replacing the Sonitone pickup element and wiring a Matrix to the Sonitone preamp and battery box. He said they are compatible and is doable.

jricc

Did you end up trying this? Basically what that would entail is keeping the battery box and end piece in place which I assume is the Sonitone preamp. Did they say how to solder the Matrix to it?

[chasapple]

Originally Posted by paddyd

Did you end up trying this? Basically what that would entail is keeping the battery box and end piece in place which I assume is the Sonitone preamp. Did they say how to solder the Matrix to it?

Yes, I have done this.

Pull the sonitone thumb wheel preamp off the inside of the sound hole. Use hot solder wand to remove the sonicore pickup wire at its solder connection. Replace with a fishman matrix pickup, (insert it inside the saddle slot first) and solder its wires inside the preamp where the sonicore pickup used to be connected.

It's a tight space to navigate when doing the soldering, but if I did it then I suspect most people could do this because my soldering skills are moderate at best.

Leave all the other wires and connectors unchanged. Remount the sonitone thumbwheel preamp back inside near the sound hole edge as before.

Done!

-Charles

[lowrider]

When I did it, I just left all the wires long and soldered them outside of the guitar. It was very easy.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by chasapple

Yes, I have done this.

Pull the sonitone thumb wheel preamp off the inside of the sound hole. Use hot solder wand to remove the sonicore pickup wire at its solder connection. Replace with a fishman matrix pickup, (insert it inside the saddle slot first) and solder its wires inside the preamp where the sonicore pickup used to be connected.

It's a tight space to navigate when doing the soldering, but if I did it then I suspect most people could do this because my soldering skills are moderate at best.

Leave all the other wires and connectors unchanged. Remount the sonitone thumbwheel preamp back inside near the sound hole edge as before.

Done!

-Charles

Hi Charles,

Did you replace it with a genuine Matrix or some other UST?

I’m pretty cautious about mixing and matching preamps and pickups because I once had a guitar tech wire a Baggs LB6 to a Fishman Prefix barn door style preamp. The result was disastrous. The LB6 signal overdrove the Prefix preamp into severe distortion. There was no way to lower the preamp gain and neither I or the tech knew how to lower the LB6 signal electronically with the proper value capacitor or resistor. He had to install the LB6 passively (for use with an outboard preamp) and I eventually sold the Prefix preamp for peanuts.

These days I’ve been using the Schatten Design endpin preamps in two guitars because the gain is adjustable.

In any event, I’m curious about what exact UST you used. It was apparently a good match.

[jonfields45]

Fishman and most guitarists prefer a Matrix laminated UST to the Sonicore braided UST as the Matrix has less of the piezo sonic artifacts.

The Matrix is custom made and relatively fragile as given enough time they all fail. Generally it will be hum due to shield delimitation or solder failure at the cable connection. Modern lead free solder is more brittle and that’s not helping either. The matrix is relatively expensive but many of the Asian knockoffs are priced reasonably and work well.

The braided UST material is mass produced for traffic light controllers and is primarily embedded in asphalt to detect passing vehicles. It is cheap and robust. However, Baggs seems to have figured out how to be competitive with a braided UST.

If you’re interested in one of my IRs, it will dramatically improve either type of UST and you can keep the relatively bulletproof braided one if that’s what you’re starting with. The $60 Sonicake Sonic IR is a great little pedal to use an IR.

[Groovekings]

Jonfields

I currently have two guitars with UST's, one ( Larrivee ) has the Sonicore/Sonitone combo and the other (Seagull) has a proprietary Godin UST and onboard preamp. I have found that the Zoom AC2 greatly improves the tone and sound characteristics of both guitars, plus I have the other features of that pedal like the tuner, anti feedback, eq and boost. I really notice the piezo quack is much reduced and the natural sound has come back a lot - mainly because of the models inherent in the AC2.

Would you expect that the IR system you are speaking of would be an improvement over my current system ?

Thanks for any thoughts you may have

[guitaniac]

Thanks for the kind offer, Jon. The IR stuff (Mama Bear, Aura & ToneDexter) has been fascinating, but I’m currently in a retro period of experimenting with dual source rigs and more traditional effects. Albeit, I’m still employing some mild IR from the same processor (Zoom A1-Four) that’s providing EQ, reverb, chorus and compression.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

Fishman and most guitarists prefer a Matrix laminated UST to the Sonicore braided UST as the Matrix has less of the piezo sonic artifacts.

The Matrix is custom made and relatively fragile as given enough time they all fail. Generally it will be hum due to shield delimitation or solder failure at the cable connection. Modern lead free solder is more brittle and that’s not helping either. The matrix is relatively expensive but many of the Asian knockoffs are priced reasonably and work well.

The braided UST material is mass produced for traffic light controllers and is primarily embedded in asphalt to detect passing vehicles. It is cheap and robust. However, Baggs seems to have figured out how to be competitive with a braided UST.

If you’re interested in one of my IRs, it will dramatically improve either type of UST and you can keep the relatively bulletproof braided one if that’s what you’re starting with. The $60 Sonicake Sonic IR is a great little pedal to use an IR.

I’m old enough to remember when the Highlander, Headway and DTAR Timberline co-axial USTs were considered state-of-the-art USTs when combined with the recommended routed saddle slot bottom. Oh how the mighty co-axial UST has fallen. It appears that IRs have replaced the role of the routed saddle slot bottom in providing more top and body responsiveness.

[Robin, Wales]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

IÂ’m old enough to remember when the Highlander, Headway and DTAR Timberline co-axial USTs were considered state-of-the-art USTs when combined with the recommended routed saddle slot bottom. Oh how the mighty co-axial UST has fallen. It appears that IRs have replaced the role of the routed saddle slot bottom in providing more top and body responsiveness.

I gave away all the braided co-axial I had lying around that various p/u makers had sent to me for testing when I ran Busker Guitars. The "problem" with it (and actually with any piezo system really) is that the responsiveness changes depending on how much pressure is applied to the cable. If you squash it into a tight slot then you get more bass response than if it is slightly less squashed. That sort of inconsistency is not ideal. They can be great, they can be rubbish - and generally the difference is down to the installation.

[guitaniac]

Hi Robin,

Thanks for your input! Your comments are the first time that I’ve heard about a possible problem with cramming a coaxial pickup into a routed saddle slot bottom. I had presumed that manufacturers had dispensed with routing saddle slot bottoms to save time and labor costs. Now I can contemplate the possibility that the cheaper and easier installation method also provides better consistency.

I certainly agree that the mechanical aspects of a UST installation are critical for good performance. I recall that the late luthier and pickup designer Rick Turner had very particular beliefs on how a UST should be installed.

[slooky]

Originally Posted by lowrider

When I did it, I just left all the wires long and soldered them outside of the guitar. It was very easy.

that seems like a good way to do it, thanks

[chasapple]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

Hi Charles,



Did you replace it with a genuine Matrix or some other UST?



I’m pretty cautious about mixing and matching preamps and pickups because I once had a guitar tech wire a Baggs LB6 to a Fishman Prefix barn door style preamp. The result was disastrous. The LB6 signal overdrove the Prefix preamp into severe distortion. There was no way to lower the preamp gain and neither I or the tech knew how to lower the LB6 signal electronically with the proper value capacitor or resistor. He had to install the LB6 passively (for use with an outboard preamp) and I eventually sold the Prefix preamp for peanuts.



These days I’ve been using the Schatten Design endpin preamps in two guitars because the gain is adjustable.



In any event, I’m curious about what exact UST you used. It was apparently a good match.

I used a real Fishman matrix. Not an eBay/import knock off. It's working out great!

[lowrider]

I used a knock off. It also worked very well.

[guitaniac]

I’m glad to learn that both the true Matrix and the knockoff are working well for you two.

I tried one of the knock-offs for a bit, but had a balance problem with it. Replacing the knock-off with a Baggs LB6 fixed the balance problem, but the LB6 doesn’t blend very well with the Baggs Lyric mic which I installed in the same guitar. LOL, it’s always something.