The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 06-10-2019, 03:41 PM
tippy5 tippy5 is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: So Cal
Posts: 2,648
Default Major third chords less dissonant with the third note lowered

https://youtu.be/Daw93bRHe4Y?t=422

Really nice lesson on ratios, intervals and to making the guitar resonate pleasingly.
If a songs composition has a prominent third note in a major scale it might help the the human ear to temper, lower third note string tuning.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-11-2019, 08:27 AM
MikeBmusic MikeBmusic is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: On the Mass/NH border
Posts: 5,924
Default

Nothing new about that, those who don't rely on electronic tuners have been sweetening their tuning all along. The problem with tweaking the major 3rd note (the G# on the G string for an E major chord, for example, or the B on the A string and the open B string for a G major chord) is then the same string on a different fret for a different chord (the A major or C major) sound off. It's all a matter of compromise. Some players don't even seem to notice, but it drives me crazy!
__________________
Mike

My music: https://mikebirchmusic.bandcamp.com

2017 Taylor 114ce-N
2012 Taylor 310ce
2011 Fender CD140SCE
Ibanez 12 string a/e
73 Epiphone 6830E 6 string (made in 71?)

72 Fender Telecaster
Epiphone Dot Studio
Epiphone LP Jr
Chinese Strat clone ($25!)

Kala baritone ukulele
Seagull 'Merlin'
Washburn Mandolin
Luna 'tatoo' a/e ukulele
antique banjolin
Squire J bass
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-11-2019, 08:33 AM
rick-slo's Avatar
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 12,945
Default

Always a compromise. Get the D chord perfect and then A chord sounds bad.
__________________
Derek Coombs
Website -> Music -> Tabs -> CDs and Youtube
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-11-2019, 08:48 AM
PiousDevil PiousDevil is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,478
Default

This is why I prefer the sound of an open G chord with the B string fretted at the third fret rather than open, to eliminate that extra third ringing out. I can lighten the pressure on the fretted A string to sweeten that one a touch. Unfortunately that limits the licks I have available from that shape compared to the “pinky on the high E third fret with open B string” shape
__________________
Too many guitars and a couple of banjos
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-11-2019, 08:56 AM
llew llew is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Coastal South Carolina
Posts: 8,793
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by PiousDevil View Post
This is why I prefer the sound of an open G chord with the B string fretted at the third fret rather than open, to eliminate that extra third ringing out. I can lighten the pressure on the fretted A string to sweeten that one a touch. Unfortunately that limits the licks I have available from that shape compared to the “pinky on the high E third fret with open B string” shape
I agree but it's all a trade off I suppose? Fingering of different chord shapes all depends on where I'm going next and what I want to get out of the progression. If that makes sense?
__________________
Jim
You can never do the wrong thing by doing the right thing...
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-11-2019, 09:25 AM
Stomp Stomp is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: DUB HAM ORD
Posts: 248
Default

Many Dobro players do this as standard when playing GBDGBD, steel players and banjo players too.
Equal temperament is not always the best choice IMO, often tuning differently the gains outweigh the losses in harmony, also when playing open tunings.
It's why we put the DB0 and DBH and other such Sweetener presets in our tuners.
__________________
1895 Ditson
56 Gibson LG1
72 Guild D25
77 Gurian JM
78 Yamaha FG375S
79 Guild F512
92 Dobro 33H
96 Guild JF55
00 Fender Tele
03 Taylor BB
04 Gibson ES137
05 Washb Uke
06 Gibson LP
07 Martin BP
18 Gibson SJ200

GBNF: Gibson 54 A40,90 J200,90 LP; Guild 75 F112,93 D25/12,95 JF30/12; 65 Fender Mustang; 84 Marlen D10; 98 Ric 360/12; 08 Martin HD35


I work for Peterson Strobe Tuners
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-11-2019, 09:30 AM
ljguitar's Avatar
ljguitar ljguitar is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: wyoming
Posts: 38,526
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by tippy5 View Post
https://youtu.be/Daw93bRHe4Y?t=422

Really nice lesson on ratios, intervals and to making the guitar resonate pleasingly.
If a songs composition has a prominent third note in a major scale it might help the the human ear to temper, lower third note string tuning.
Hi tippy (and others)

Interestingly, for decades when I play the three note inversion up the neck that's shaped like a traditional D chord (on strings 1-2-3) I squeeze the third string slightly to bend it into tune with the other two strings. I'm not actually retuning anything, and the chord would technically be a bit sharp, but the notes of the triad are in tune with each other.

I do it other places with parallel 3rds and parallel 6ths as well. Like a Barber Shop Quartet adjusts their voices so the chord is perfectly in tune.

The reason I don't retune the string is the poor intonation spots are in several places on the neck and on different strings (that's the joy of equal temperament).

Perhaps if I camped out on open chords all the time retuning would be an option to consider, but I move about the neck too much.


__________________
Larry J

Baby #01
Baby #02
Baby #03
Baby #04
Full-size Full-Scale Baby #4

Larry's songs...

…Just because you've argued till a discussion turns silent doesn't mean you have convinced anyone…
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-11-2019, 09:32 AM
ceciltguitar ceciltguitar is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 563
Default

Stomp, what do "DBO" and "DBH" stand for? Thank you.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-11-2019, 09:39 AM
MC5C MC5C is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Tatamagouche Nova Scotia
Posts: 815
Default

other tricks include playing voicings where the third is left out, or where the third is a larger interval from the root. Like a G chord where the root is on the sixth string, fifth string is damped, and you play a D on the second string instead of the B. Sounds very G-chord like, major chord, but no third. Or a C chord with a root on the fifth string, fourth string damped, and a high G on the first string. Or you play a Major 7 substitution for a major chord, so the third is juxtaposed against the 7 instead of the root.
__________________
Brian Evans
1935 Dobro model 25 resonator
1943 Paramount (made by Kay) mandolin
1946 Epiphone Zephyr electric archtop
1957 Hofner Senator archtop
1962 Gibson Melody Maker electric
1963 National Dynamic lap steel
1996 Landola jumbo
1998 Godin Artisan TC electric
1998 Epiphone SG electric
2010 GoldTone PBR-CA resonator
2015 Evans electric archtop
2016 Evans archtop
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-11-2019, 11:13 AM
Bain Bain is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Uk
Posts: 152
Default

The more I learn on this site the more confused I get , and the less I know. And the more I need to learn ..................... But thanks to the site ,you are unique and the rest of you guys brilliant education for the guitar.....♥️🧐🍺
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-11-2019, 11:48 AM
DesertTwang DesertTwang is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Tucson, Arizona
Posts: 5,318
Default

Wow. My ears must suck. Never noticed anything dissonant with the D chord shape, or any other chord for that matter....
__________________
"And that's why I've always thought of bluegrass players as the Marines of the music world" – (Some rock guitar guy I jammed with a while ago)

Martin America 1
Martin 000-15sm
Recording King Dirty 30s RPS-9 TS
Taylor GS Mini
Baton Rouge 12-string guitar
Martin Backpacker
1933 Epiphone Olympic
1971 Dobro
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-11-2019, 12:15 PM
PiousDevil PiousDevil is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,478
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DesertTwang View Post
Wow. My ears must suck. Never noticed anything dissonant with the D chord shape, or any other chord for that matter....


I think during most chords in which the 3rd is fretted we unconsciously make minute adjustments with our finger pressure to get the sweetest sounding note that we can.
__________________
Too many guitars and a couple of banjos
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-11-2019, 12:27 PM
Alan Carruth Alan Carruth is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,963
Default

Major thirds in 12-tone Equal Temperament are 'off' by quite a lot. It's part of the price you pay for being able to play in all keys without rebuilding the instrument. If, like most of us, you grew up with 12-tone ET you don't tend to notice it. Until you do. Then the problems never go away. Sadly, it's mathematically impossible to construct a scale that has all of the fifths and octaves 'pure', so we're left with using some form of 'temperament'; applying a fudge factor that makes things at least tolerable.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-11-2019, 12:37 PM
catfish catfish is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Moscow, Russia
Posts: 540
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ceciltguitar View Post
Stomp, what do "DBO" and "DBH" stand for? Thank you.
It's explained here, if you read at the 3rd column in the bottom:
http://76.12.22.162/media/pdf/Peters...lipEnglish.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-11-2019, 12:47 PM
vindibona1 vindibona1 is offline
Guest
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Chicago- North Burbs, via Mexico City
Posts: 4,894
Default

The system of equal temperament is off by design. Equal temperament allows fixed pitch instruments such as piano to play in all keys, acknowledging that some intervals will be off. Same thing with fretted instruments, except it is easier for us who play those instruments to make quick adjustments as desired. The thing is that the intonation issue is most clear when playing triads or chords. The ear forgives single note play more easily. Non-fixed pitched instruments (i.e. brass, winds and strings) aren't restricted and while their instruments are designed to respond similarly, have the ability to manipulate the pitch on the fly. It should be noted that many piano tuners actually tend to raise the higher pitches on the piano (called "spreading the pitch) as pitches that are technically in tune tend to sound flat to the ear (a phenomenon that I don't understand, but was shown to me by a Steinway certified technician that worked for me for a time).

There are many different strategies for compensating for equal temperament. But much of the adjustments are compromises. Some folks, rather than lower the third will raise the 5th, which becomes less obvious in certain circumstances. Some guitar players use the James Taylor tuning method, which is both a partial compromise for equal temperament with some compensation for the raise of pitch due to string deflection (which is why we should always strive to tune while striking the string with the same force we will perform with).

One more thing though... With guitars there are two tuning forces at work: The vibration frequency of the stings and it's overtones, and the natural resonance of the guitar itself. A perfect example of trying to maximize that aspect is Taylor's v-class bracing. With the bracing configuration they are trying to allow the body of the guitar's resonance better match the strings' frequencies. I think for the most part they have succeeded... but in doing so brought out aspects of sound that change the balance of sound that our ears are used to and expect in acoustic guitars. I'll stop here.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Thread Tools



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=