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  #16  
Old 06-17-2019, 12:04 PM
Kalani Kalani is offline
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I like the Fishman Matrix Infinity in my Martin for live playing—-plug and play with no feedback problems. I usually go thru a preamp but only use the phase switch to help with any encroaching feedback. I’ve never had to use the notch.
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  #17  
Old 06-17-2019, 06:29 PM
bobbyg67 bobbyg67 is offline
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Default Schatten HFN Active VT Under-bridge Guitar Pickup w/Preamp

Schatten HFN Active VT Under-bridge Guitar Pickup w/Preamp. would this be a good choice to replace the k&ks in my martins?
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  #18  
Old 06-18-2019, 06:56 AM
bobbyg67 bobbyg67 is offline
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need an answer on this please. will i have the same problem replacing the k&k with the hfn as i would with the trance?
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  #19  
Old 06-18-2019, 09:04 AM
guitaniac guitaniac is offline
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i've got k&k minis in my martin d-18 and 0m28. i recently purchased a new taylor 714 ce with the v bracing and es2 system and i love it!. plug and play at church with very little eq. also playing out through an aer60/3 lined out to a 10 inch qsc speaker. i run through a redeye twin so i can be set up with two guitars.

problem is the k&ks with the martins. too much variance in eq'ing as opposed to the simplicity of the 714ce. i really like the volume and tone controls on the taylor. what pickup do you recommend for the martins? price isn't really an issue. i just want usable guitars on stage with no feedback and some eq tone contol. i know there is a solution just don't know what it is.

please don't tell me the k&ks can't be removed as my luthier has already done this on other guitars and told me no problem.
If cost isn't an issue, a ToneDexter digital processor will EQ your K&K equipped guitars for you. Depending on your mic positioning during the WaveMap training procedure, you can adjust the tonal balance of the WaveMaps somewhat.


I'm currently using ToneDexter with my iBeam-equipped old D28. I've found that TD not only improves on the iBeam sound, but actually makes the signal less feedback prone. I've found that if I also employ TD's sweepable notch (at around 150Hz with this particular rig), it makes the signal even more feedback resistant and I can boost the signal level enough to accommodate picking with bare fingerpads in a noisy bar setting.
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  #20  
Old 06-18-2019, 11:03 AM
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need an answer on this please. will i have the same problem replacing the k&k with the hfn as i would with the trance?
I haven't tried that, but no, I don't think you'd have an issue. The Trance issue has to do with their tape not bonding to superglue residue. The HFN doesn't really "bond", it attaches with relatively thick putty. It's a loose bond, not a hard one.

But I'd suggest stepping back a bit, unless you're prepared to go down the road of trying lots of pickups (tho sometimes that's the only option).

You have a medium-sized Taylor with an undersaddle active pickup in it that you like. You have a dread Martin with a passive SBT pickup that you don't. That's a lot of variables! It's hard to be scientific about pickups, especially with personal taste involved, but before you just start randomly trying pickups, I'd at least do a little investigation and try to narrow down what you don't like about the Martin/K&K.

Dreads are different beasts - maybe you just don't like the sound of the a big boomy guitar amplified. Maybe it's the passive pickup - causing issues when you plug into different sound systems (try a preamp to see if that helps). Maybe it's that an SBT in a big boomy guitar isn't the sound you want, or that there are feedback or interaction issues at performance volume. In that case, just trying a different SBT isn't going to fix anything. So on and so forth.
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  #21  
Old 06-18-2019, 12:31 PM
GuitarLuva GuitarLuva is offline
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Originally Posted by bobbyg67 View Post
Schatten HFN Active VT Under-bridge Guitar Pickup w/Preamp. would this be a good choice to replace the k&ks in my martins?
I've become a big fan of the Schatten HFN pickup over the last few months. It's very easy to install and sounds very mic like on its own. You can install it with either the provided tape or putty. The putty is my favorite! As long as the K&K was properly removed I doubt that you would have any issues with the Schatten HFN.
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  #22  
Old 06-19-2019, 06:57 AM
bobbyg67 bobbyg67 is offline
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Good advice Doug. i also have a martin om-28 with a k&k and spent some time dialing it in and can get quite a satisfactory tone out of the k&k.

my equipment is aer60/3, soundcraft efx8 mixer, redeye twin preamp, bodyrez, 2 qsc ten inch speakers.
taylor 714ce, martin d18, and martin om-28. with all that stuff i should be able to figure out a pretty good setup for all situations.

i did order the Schatten HFN Active VT Under-bridge Guitar Pickup w/Preamp. don't know if i'll replace a k&k or not. anyway will have a pickup for the next guitar, ha
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  #23  
Old 06-19-2019, 09:21 AM
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I have installed Dazzos (well, Teddy installed them) over previous K&Ks without any issue. My guess is the Trance issue has to do with the tape they use.
My current recommendation would be the Dazzo system. I've been a long time K&K user because K&K systems are simple and bullet proof. I have had a few K&K installations that were stellar, and a few that needed a lot of EQ. My main problem with K&K is honky (exaggerated) mids and subdued highs.

My recent experience with Dazzo has been revelatory. Basically, the pickup is physically designed to EQ the three major tone areas, bass, mids and treble. Whereas K&K is a "one size fits all" design that gets cleaned up with EQ to match your guitar, the Dazzo is a bit different. The bass is pre EQ'd by choosing the right size pair for your guitar. The owner, Teddy, will assist you with the selection. The mids seem to be controlled by location of the sensors between the top two and bottom two strings. The highs are crisp as a function of the triangular 3 dimensional shape. The end result is a pickup that is essentially pre EQ'd before it gets to your preamp stage. The preamp can then be used to buffer the signal for the next amplification stage. 5M Ohm is recommended, which I have verified with my ears.
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  #24  
Old 06-19-2019, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by bobbyg67 View Post
Good advice Doug. i also have a martin om-28 with a k&k and spent some time dialing it in and can get quite a satisfactory tone out of the k&k.

my equipment is aer60/3, soundcraft efx8 mixer, redeye twin preamp, bodyrez, 2 qsc ten inch speakers.
taylor 714ce, martin d18, and martin om-28. with all that stuff i should be able to figure out a pretty good setup for all situations.
ah, ok, that paints a bit different picture. So if I understand right, the Taylor is a bit of a red herring, tho it's useful to know that a completely different guitar/pickup works for you. But the bigger puzzle is that you have a D-28 with a K&K that you like and a D18 with a K&K that you don't. You have a good preamp. So that rules out most of my variables. It's a bit surprising in this case, since the guitars are pretty similar, but SBTs are like that - there's a lot of variability between guitars. About the only thing you can do is try pickups until you find one you like. People will tell you X is good, and Y is good, but K&Ks work well, too (as you know from your D28). So I don't think anyone can tell you what pickup will work for you in that specific guitar, unfortunately.
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Last edited by Doug Young; 06-19-2019 at 11:43 AM.
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  #25  
Old 06-20-2019, 06:04 PM
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In my experience, from standard installation procedures for the two, the Trance has more bass response and a more complex overall tone, and does so without EQing the living heck out of the system. There must be a reason that Neil Young, Jackson Browne, Paul Simon, and Sheryl Crow use Trance systems, and it sure can't be that they get cash for endorsing Trance products because I get the feeling that Trance is the best-kept secret in acoustic-guitar amplification.

The Schatten HFN Artist Plus 2, which I have installed in my Martin D-18, needs significant +Bass EQing to sound decent. This HFN, top-of-the-line system has a soundhole-module with two Volume controls, Channel 1 for the as-supplied HFN, and Channel 2 for an additional pickup source of some sort, which I feel is necessary to get a really good amplified tone from the system.
Jackson, Neil and Paul are three of the most notorious tone-chasers in the trade. They demand perfection. I first heard the Trance at a JB solo show in 2007 and it turned my head around. Haven't looked back since....

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  #26  
Old 06-20-2019, 06:59 PM
Petty1818 Petty1818 is offline
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Originally Posted by Charmed Life Picks View Post
Jackson, Neil and Paul are three of the most notorious tone-chasers in the trade. They demand perfection. I first heard the Trance at a JB solo show in 2007 and it turned my head around. Haven't looked back since....

scott memmer
To be fair, Paul used a standard Matrix Undersaddle up until last year. He never struck me as demanding a natural/perfect tone. I follow Bill Asher on instagram and he works on guitars for pretty much everyone you mentioned and he's a big Amulet fan. I am sure his input had something to do with Paul switching to the Trance system. If I remember correctly, he even posted about installing it. Not taking away from the Amulet, just an observation.

For me, the Amulet was just too bright. I still say if you have a Martin guitar for example, systems like the Amulet will sound amazing. If your guitar is already bright, it, along with many other SBT's, will be harder to make work. That was my experience at least. I currently use the HFN and I am not super happy with the bass response but it's far closer to the tone I am after.
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  #27  
Old 06-23-2019, 03:20 PM
WPTS WPTS is offline
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Seems to me a luthier who cannot properly clean and prep a bridge plate should go back to school. Some fine steel wool and/or minimal sanding should easily take care of any superglue residue. After cleaning it should be good as new.
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  #28  
Old 06-23-2019, 03:41 PM
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Seems to me a luthier who cannot properly clean and prep a bridge plate should go back to school. Some fine steel wool and/or minimal sanding should easily take care of any superglue residue. After cleaning it should be good as new.
Possibly. I'll just repeat what Gary Hull at Trance told me: The superglue soaks into the bridge plate to an extent that it's impractical to sand down the bridgeplate enough to allow the Trance tape to adhere properly.

My personal experience confirms that - again, this may be somewhat unique to the Trance and their tape. It's not that it won't stick, but the tone is really bad - very thin and brittle-sounding. Someone may be able to do it - but I could not, and the manufacturer (Trance) said it wouldn't work - even tho they should be happy and motivated to have you replace a K&K with their product. It doesn't make sense to me - you'd think adhesion is adhesion, etc, but after multiple attempts, I can only report my experience. Trance pickups work well on pristine bridge plates, not so well over a previous K&K install.

Give Gary a call if you want to chat directly with him about it. From my perspective, it's at least worth knowing upfront that there's a potential challenge that at the very least requires extra attention. If you can clean up the bridge plate enough to make the Trance work, that's great!
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