Help...What is the "very best" sounding PA / Amplifier available ?

JayMc · #1 03-29-2020, 09:59 AM

Hi Guy's,

I have walked into a mine field... I have a nice Condenser Mike (TLM-107 Neumann).. and I have a really nice handmade Yamaha with a Japan only 3 way Syetem60 pickup in it.,... I'm planning on getting a decent mixer also.

I have been looking into trying to find the best and most natural sounding (for singing etc) PA system... I have heard the LR Baggs Synapse has not got good low end unfortunately anyone any experience with this ?

Many people are complaining about Bose not sure why... ??

Do I need an Anolog amp to sound natural not dry etc...??

I have been looking at the Yamaha Stagepas 1k anyone any experience with this, I have alway's really liked Yamaha.

All suggestions are greatly appreciated :-)
Jay

SpruceTop · #2 03-29-2020, 10:13 AM

What kind of venues will you be playing in? The LR Baggs Synapse has excellent low-end down to about 65 Hz, along with clear, ear-fatigueless, wide-dispersion tone. It's a PA speaker designed with a singer-guitarist in mind and sounds excellent to my ears, and would be a great choice for solo singer/guitarist playing in small- to medium-size venues. I've suggested to LR Baggs that they develop an optional subwoofer speaker for the Synapse that would extend its low end for bass-instruments but, so far, they haven't taken my advice.

If you want close to full-spectrum tone that is good for the reproduction of electric-bass and acoustic-bass tone, then a Bose L1 Model II system with B1 or B2 Bass Module would be a good choice. There are other new line-array systems out there that are likely very good too but I don't have experience with them. Any of the box-type speakers are good but will need a subwoofer for full-spectrum tonal response.

SpruceTop · #3 03-29-2020, 10:29 AM

A lot depends on what your budget would be for a system. The LR Baggs Synapse sells for $1799 and sounds great for an all-in-one system but are you crazy enough, like I am, to spend that kind of money on a 2-channel system? Based on reports from a few other AGFers, a Daedalus speaker with a good quality mixer and amp would be another excellent choice but at somewhere around $3000 and more for everything, would you want to consider a system like this?

Being that I've owned a pair of QSC K10 speakers that were okay but could sound a bit sterile and harsh sounding, you likely can't go wrong with one or a pair of the latest version of the QSC K8.2/K10.2/K12.2 speaker and a mixer, and maybe, later, add a QSC subwoofer if needed. Due to their popularity, these speakers will also sell quite easily when you may want to move on to another system.

Bluesdale · #4 03-29-2020, 11:03 AM

Here's what I use:

https://hkaudio.com/produkt/lucas-na...stereo-system/

Sounds amazing and it's an easy setup and carry. Best if you get the optional wheeled carry bag. I need the 4-channel feature for duos and small band stuff.

There may be other high-end stuff out there like Daedalus cabinets and what not but this little system is a great piece of product design and engineering. HK Audio is not Harmon Karden. It is a small German company founded in 1979. All products are made in Germany so it is top notch stuff.

SpruceTop · #5 03-29-2020, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluesdale

Here's what I use:

https://hkaudio.com/produkt/lucas-na...stereo-system/

Sounds amazing and it's an easy setup and carry. Best if you get the optional wheeled carry bag. I need the 4-channel feature for duos and small band stuff.

There may be other high-end stuff out there like Daedalus cabinets and what not but this little system is a great piece of product design and engineering. HK Audio is not Harmon Karden. It is a small German company founded in 1979. All products are made in Germany so it is top notch stuff.

In 2015, just after the Lucas Nano 300 was released, I auditioned one that was playing the salesman's canned cell-phone music, and it sounded good. I got curious about the system and emailed HK about it. My email included a question about where the 300 system was made. The reply was that the Nano 300 was made in China as they mentioned it couldn't be sold at the price it was if it were to be made in Germany. Oh, how I was hoping it was actually made in Germany! Maybe that has changed in the last several years or so? Are the costlier systems and the 608i Stereo actually German-made? Here is the link to my AGF post back in 2015

JayMc · #6 03-29-2020, 11:20 AM

@sprucetop
Ah yeah definitely crazy enough to spend 3k... :-)

I mean I love the hole idea of the Synapse but it's a realy shame about the low end... I was wondering if it would be possibly to connect a sub to it.. you took the words right out of my mouth with that statement.. the low end is putting me off big style, I would like a well rounded system ready for anything listening to Vinyl etc.. i don't want to be lacking in any frequency range, whats up with that it's a shame.....

I would like to use a mixer and run multiple instruments through it including a bass !! I have friends over for jam sessions etc.. and if I am to go out an use it for a gig again don't want to be lacking in any frequency range so anyone can plug in any instrument and sound great :-)

The Daedalus looks like a really nice option... what amp or speakers setup in their range is good ? Do they do Anolog class D I wonder...I will look into them cheers for that.

That is another thing I have been reading a lot about new technology inside Anolog Class D amps in recent years, like the synapse but with full frequency wud be nice, but not sure which or where to get them ? There is an Audiophile forum I will setup an ac and look into it.

@bluesdale
Cheers for that m8 I will defo also have a look at those guy's hkaudio for sure thanks m8.

Jay

jseth · #7 03-29-2020, 11:21 AM

I have not sung or played through a rig that comes anywhere close to my Bose L1 Model II system... and I've played and sung through a LOT of different PA's in my 5 decades of performing...

The Bose system is very natural sounding, very smooth and even with incredible dispersion (180 degrees +). I'd feel confident using it for gigs up to ~300 people.

I am not a fan of what I call "un-natural" sound equipment - systems that emphasis a "sizzling" high end and pronounced bass response - so the Bose L1 with the Bose T1 is about perfect for my wants.

I've used the Bose stuff for 11 years or so, both the Classic and the Model II (w/ one B1 subwoofer) and found it to be extremely reliable and flexible. The only problem I've had has been successfully "divorcing" my live PA experience and really utilizing the Bose's strengths, which are far different than your normal "point and shoot", "turn it up so you can be heard in the back of the room" systems.

With the Bose positioned correctly, I don't need monitor speakers at all, which is wonderful! I hear exactly what the audience is hearing... instead of some tinny mix through less-than full range monitor speakers.

The Bose stuff is expensive, even more so if you use it the way it's designed (ONE unit per performer). Most, if not all, of the 'issues" I've heard people having with the Bose rigs stem from them trying to use one system for multiples of players...

SpruceTop · #8 03-29-2020, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JayMc

@sprucetop

Ah yeah definitely crazy enough to spend 3k... :-)

I mean I love the hole idea of the Synapse but it's a realy shame about the low end... I was wondering if it would be possibly to connect a sub to it.. you took the words right out of my mouth with that statement.. the low end is putting me off big style, I would like a well rounded system ready for anything listening to Vinyl etc.. i don't want to be lacking in any frequency range, whats up with that it's a shame.....

I would like to use a mixer and run multiple instruments through it including a bass !! I have friends over for jam sessions etc.. and if I am to go out an use it for a gig again don't want to be lacking in any frequency range so anyone can plug in any instrument and sound great :-)

The Daedalus looks like a really nice option... what amp or speakers setup in their range is good ? Do they do Anolog class D I wonder...?

That is another thing I have been reading a lot about new technology in Anolog Class D amps like the synapse but with full frequency range, but not sure whiuch or where to get them ?

Jay

AGF members, Alohachris and Sdelsolray could tell you everything you need to know about the Daedalus W803 and the preamps and amps they use to power the speaker. I think the W803 is now discontinued but Daedalus has other speakers that may be what you're looking for but they can be heavy.

Bluesdale · #9 03-29-2020, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

In 2015, just after the Lucas Nano 300 was released, I auditioned one that was playing the salesman's canned cell-phone music, and it sounded good. I got curious about the system and emailed HK about it. My email included a question about where the 300 system was made. The reply was that the Nano 300 was made in China as they mentioned it couldn't be sold at the price it was if it were to be made in Germany. Oh, how I was hoping it was actually made in Germany! Maybe that has changed in the last several years or so? Are the costlier systems and the 608i Stereo actually German-made? Here is the link to my AGF post back in 2015

Yes, I stand corrected. I just checked the fine print on my 608i Lucas Nano "Designed and Engineered in Germany - Made in China".

One thing I like is all the options for setup. Most gigs I put the satellite speakers on stands and split it. Coffeehouse corner I do the single riser pole kinda like a Bose. And at home in my studio I just have the speakers right on top with no pole. I also like the one-handed load-in with a guitar on my back and mic stand bag with other stuff in the other hand. One trip.

jpino · #10 03-29-2020, 11:47 AM

Like others said, skip the Synapse - 2x QSC K8.2’s would be very similar and more flexible with a two mains setup.

Don’t forget about: https://secure.schertler.com/en_US/shop/amplifiers

Expensive, but Schertler amps have amazing guts that truly sound like you playing only louder, quality pickup provided. Never tried their PA Systems but I would look into that with the sexy floor wedge if money weren’t an issue.

JayMc · #11 03-29-2020, 12:13 PM

@ jseth
I have been looking at the Bose... it's good to hear that they are natural sounding... I have been looking at them... but I am kind of interested in the latest big Class D Anolog controlled new tech system's I have been reading there has been a lot of progress in that area..

@ Bluesdale
Lots of quality stuff is made in China it jus depends on how strict the quality controls that are in place are.. I know zee German's can be perfectionists so this is a plus..

These look whopper https://www.thomann.de/ie/hk_audio_l...UaAmrTEALw_wcB
I like the look of those bad boy's I hope they live up to the hype...

Also it does say Developed Manufactured and "Made in Germany" on the youtube video ( https://youtu.be/44iYATmlki0 ) I guess you got to watch the fine print eh.???. but they still look awesome..

SpruceTop · #12 03-29-2020, 12:19 PM

The OP, at first, didn't stipulate that cost wasn't a consideration. If overall load-in/load-out weight also isn't too big a consideration, then I would suggest he start his gear quest by looking at the Bose L1 Model II with Bass Modules, or a Bose F1 Model 812 Flexible Array Loudspeaker and Subwoofer stack. If pride of ownership is part of the quest, then the Daedalus speaker products would be an option if the company will build a pair of the desired model with plain, quality plywood. Then again, a Daedalus with the solid-wood cabinets that are shown on the website would be beautiful!

YamahaGuy · #13 03-29-2020, 12:46 PM

I'm curious as to which Yamaha guitar the OP has...maybe a 2010ish LLX26c? Anyway, I can speak to the Stagepas 1K. It has terrific bass response when compared to the Boae L1C. To me, the Bose sounded like a bookshelf stereo system when pushed hard. The Stagepas is capable of getting very loud. My one gripe with the Stagepas so far is that it is picky about the vocal mic you use without a mixer. Plugging direct into it, my Beta 58a sounded bad, my EV ND767A sounded better, Sennheiser e935 was ok, but Sennheiser e945 sounds best of the mics I've tried so far. By the way, it doesn't have phantom power should you need it, you'll have to get it via a mixer, or mic preamp, or otherwise. I have an Xvive wireless unit for condenser mics that powered my Sennheiser e965 just fine.

The guitar sounds great into it.

Using a mixer with the Stagepas 1K provides excellent results. Just be sure to get the connections right.

If you're looking for a great sounding PA, I'd go for a dedicated sub bottom, a quality 10" top speaker and a good mixer.

My one rig is comprised of an 18" sub, two 12" powered tops and a little mixer and it sounds way better than any stick system. This thread is a huge rabbit hole.

SpruceTop · #14 03-29-2020, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YamahaGuy

I'm curious as to which Yamaha guitar the OP has...maybe a 2010ish LLX26c? Anyway, I can speak to the Stagepas 1K. It has terrific bass response when compared to the Boae L1C. To me, the Bose sounded like a bookshelf stereo system when pushed hard. The Stagepas is capable of getting very loud. My one gripe with the Stagepas so far is that it is picky about the vocal mic you use without a mixer. Plugging direct into it, my Beta 58a sounded bad, my EV ND767A sounded better, Sennheiser e935 was ok, but Sennheiser e945 sounds best of the mics I've tried so far. By the way, it doesn't have phantom power should you need it, you'll have to get it via a mixer, or mic preamp, or otherwise. I have an Xvive wireless unit for condenser mics that powered my Sennheiser e965 just fine.

The guitar sounds great into it.

Using a mixer with the Stagepas 1K provides excellent results. Just be sure to get the connections right.

If you're looking for a great sounding PA, I'd go for a dedicated sub bottom, a quality 10" top speaker and a good mixer.

My one rig is comprised of an 18" sub, two 12" powered tops and a little mixer and it sounds way better than any stick system. This thread is a huge rabbit hole.

The Yamaha StagePas 1000 looks very good spec-wise, and its cost is reasonable, and Yamaha makes great gear! I'll have to find one to audition.

Al Acuff · #15 03-29-2020, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bluesdale

Here's what I use:

https://hkaudio.com/produkt/lucas-na...stereo-system/
HK Audio is not Harmon Karden. It is a small German company founded in 1979. All products are made in Germany so it is top notch stuff.

A Nano 608i user here and my unit was made in China. It says so right on the box.

Keep in mind that the Nano 608i has very limited on board controls. You need an iPad with their mixer app if you want to adjust eq, compression, etc. I found the one knob eq on the hardware mixer isn't very useful. Give me bass, mids, and highs any day. I wound up selling my Nano 608i.

For what it's worth my advice is to think in terms of a scalable system. An acoustic amp with a good preamp section and an extension speaker or two for when you need extra coverage.

In my experience the "best PA" is the one that doesn't distract you from doing your job as a musician. Keep your gear simple and focus on your performance.