where is that natural reverb coming from, anyway? (A Bob Womack question)

zenpicker · #1 03-02-2010, 09:37 AM

Here's a question for the engineers - especially Bob Womack! - spurred by a remark on Bob's (excellent) recording advice site, Bob's site.

In discussing the use of v-shaped gobos Bob advises that you might have to add some artificial reverb if you place the gobo behind the player. This is the setup I generally use - an Auralex-covered "shoji screen" a couple feet behind me, opened into a 120-degree V. This effectively isolates room artifacts and is a cheap way to reconfigure my performance space.

My question is about the reverb. I've noticed for a long time that recordings I do with this setup have plenty of natural reverb. If I feel the need to add reverb, it's minimal. I've always wondered where that reverb is coming from, given that I'm in a relatively small room and I've canceled that room out as best I can with the gobo. From the player's performance position it sounds pretty dead without phones, actually.

Is the reverb actually from what's going on reflectively inside the body of the guitar, with the guitar being essentially a mini-concert hall itself? I've always wondered.

Here's the most recent example: Eve Lynne

Now, this recording is just a rough draft performance, so I did no processing whatsoever - no noise reduction, no reverb or EQ, nada. With the caveat that I think the mikes were too close, resulting in a certain harshness and a bit too much finger/fretting noise, I think the recording sounds perfectly adequate from a reverb point of view. If I were mastering this I would not add a trace of reverb to it. Taste definitely varies, but I can't imagine that anyone would find this recording "flat" or lacking in space.

Hence the question: how can you get this much natural reverb from a damped performance space? I just don't get the physics. It's fine - it's not a problem, far from it! - but inquiring minds want to know.

Any thoughts?

ronmac · #2 03-02-2010, 09:48 AM

The gobo behind you will eliminate most of the late reflections from that direction. There is still opportunity for early reflections to creep in from floor, ceiling, etc.

Bob Womack · #3 03-02-2010, 09:49 AM

That's pretty dry. I hear a few near reflections from the room and the rest is the big box sound from the guitar and some presence from close mic'ing. It just sounds like rosewood to me. Is it?

Bob

Howard Emerson · #4 03-02-2010, 10:01 AM

Hi Edward,
I'll bet most of the 'reverb' you're hearing is your strings ringing behind the note being fingered, sympathetic open strings and the 'harp strings' behind the nut.

I'd also guess new strings and rosewood being used.

HE

zenpicker · #5 03-02-2010, 10:10 AM

Sorry, gents, that's a mahogany/cedar Lowden with crisp Newtone strings. When I get my rosewood/cedar Lowden on Thursday I'll try again....

Bob, when you say the recording is dry do you mean you'd add more reverb in the mix?

rick-slo · #6 03-02-2010, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zenpicker

Is the reverb actually from what's going on reflectively inside the body of the guitar, with the guitar being essentially a mini-concert hall itself? I've always wondered.

Bingo! I notice it on my Albert Mueller especially. It is like a minature echo cavern. I am not sure if that is a good thing or bad thing regarding recording.
Also your screen behind you is probably having little absorption effect on the lower frequencies.

zenpicker · #7 03-02-2010, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronmac

The gobo behind you will eliminate most of the late reflections from that direction. There is still opportunity for early reflections to creep in from floor, ceiling, etc.

Good point, and I am on a floating wooden floor. The room is in the basement level and has a relatively low ceiling as well, which I have regarded as a source of potential trouble and have considered treating...though I'm not particularly unhappy with the sound I'm getting.

Bob Womack · #8 03-02-2010, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zenpicker

Sorry, gents, that's a mahogany/cedar Lowden with crisp Newtone strings. When I get my rosewood/cedar Lowden on Thursday I'll try again....

Bob, when you say the recording is dry do you mean you'd add more reverb in the mix?

No, it's just a description of amount of reverb on the continuum: dry <---> wet.

Tweak-head talk. Sorry. The actual amount you use is, as others have said, a subjective choice.

Bob

ljguitar · #9 03-02-2010, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zenpicker

...Hence the question: how can you get this much natural reverb from a damped performance space? I just don't get the physics. It's fine - it's not a problem, far from it! - but inquiring minds want to know.
...Any thoughts?

Hi Edward…
Another property you are extracting from the instrument is the long open string ringing passages which set up sympathetic notes (that often sound reverbish).

You are ever-so-cleverly allowing the proper strings to ring (by not dampening them) and harmonic overtones are being generated by other notes you play elsewhere on these open strings.

In a couple spots you do play some solo notes in the treble register without all the open strings and those are less ''reverby''...nice song by the way.

zenpicker · #10 03-02-2010, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Edward…
Another property you are extracting from the instrument is the long open string ringing passages which set up sympathetic notes (that often sound reverbish).

You are ever-so-cleverly allowing the proper strings to ring (by not dampening them) and harmonic overtones are being generated by other notes you play elsewhere on these open strings.

In a couple spots you do play some solo notes in the treble register without all the open strings and those are less ''reverby''...nice song by the way.

Good point, and I think the combination of Lowden and open tuning enhances all that. I always found that guitar to have interesting sympathetic overtones.

ljguitar · #11 03-02-2010, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zenpicker

Good point, and I think the combination of Lowden and open tuning enhances all that. I always found that guitar to have interesting sympathetic overtones.

Hi Edward…
I always coach students when playing up high (15-20th fret) and soloing, be careful not to mute the lower strings because their harmonics will increase the ''apparent'' sustain of an instrument.

That area of the neck doesn't have a lot of string length left to sustain with in the first place...so it can use all the help it can get.

Joseph Hanna · #12 03-02-2010, 06:05 PM

Nice playing and a really nice sound Edward

Must be a pretty decent room you got going there? Isn't an art form to sit still and not bump things when recording??

Still the recording is lovely.

JH

DupleMeter · #13 03-03-2010, 03:56 PM

Just saw this - listening now. here's what I hear.

Yes - sympathetic vibrations...always nice. Nice breathy mahogany on that guitar.

There are very early reflections - I think they are floor to ceiling. They are adding a distinctive mode that is fighting the low end a bit - it's right around 150Hz (best guess, give or take). Is the ceiling treated??

The rest of it is just the room. Which is not bad...I would just consider a nice cloud for the ceiling above where you record. A single piece of OC 703 would do the trick. Wrap it with some fabric and you're good to go.

Also - you may want to put a little dip around 800Hz...just a suggestion...you may notice more clarity in the mids.

Pretty piece - nice playing.

zenpicker · #14 03-03-2010, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

Just saw this - listening now. here's what I hear.

Yes - sympathetic vibrations...always nice. Nice breathy mahogany on that guitar.

There are very early reflections - I think they are floor to ceiling. They are adding a distinctive mode that is fighting the low end a bit - it's right around 150Hz (best guess, give or take). Is the ceiling treated??

The rest of it is just the room. Which is not bad...I would just consider a nice cloud for the ceiling above where you record. A single piece of OC 703 would do the trick. Wrap it with some fabric and you're good to go.

Also - you may want to put a little dip around 800Hz...just a suggestion...you may notice more clarity in the mids.

Pretty piece - nice playing.

Great observations and tips! Thanks so much. I think I will go ahead and do the cloud. I had a hard time finding 703 in my area last time I called around but will hunt some more.

One question: I currently sit on a small wooden platform that floats atop the carpet. I added that element to get a little more crispness...do you think with the ceiling treatment that should go?

rick-slo · #15 03-03-2010, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zenpicker

Great observations and tips! Thanks so much. I think I will go ahead and do the cloud. I had a hard time finding 703 in my area last time I called around but will hunt some more.

One question: I currently sit on a small wooden platform that floats atop the carpet. I added that element to get a little more crispness...do you think with the ceiling treatment that should go?

I have a few of these mounted on the ceiling
http://www.atsacoustics.com/item--AT...8x2--1001.html

Plus I have a number of 4" ones on the wall. The floor is carpeted however and I hope to put in a wood floor eventually.

After I installed the panels I ran an air purifier for a few days.