The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Custom Shop

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 01-12-2015, 09:52 PM
iim7V7IM7's Avatar
iim7V7IM7 iim7V7IM7 is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: An Exit Off the Turnpike in New Jersey
Posts: 3,605
Default

My current opinion is that a guitar constructed with:

- Well seasoned, quartersawn woods;
- By a master luthier skilled in the art who has;
- An understanding of the goals and playing style of a guitarist and;
- Adjusts their build based upon this understanding and the properties of the materials on the bench;

Is far more important than;

- A guitar constructed to target dimensions;
- Using top woods that have been exposed to simulated conditions
- To accelerate the kinetics of physical changes that occur with real-time static aging (no playing).

I am not saying that it does nothing. I would argue the top list results in a first order effect and the latter is likely a second order effect. There is too much focus on the novelty of static age, and no recognition that the guitars have not been played nor have they been built with an understanding of their owner nor the mechanical properties of the woods used.

My $.02
__________________
Acoustic Flat Tops by: Bashkin | Blanchard | Brondel | Buscarino | Chasson | Klepper | Kukich | Sexauer
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 01-12-2015, 10:00 PM
mc1 mc1 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: nova scotia
Posts: 12,899
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7 View Post
...
Is far more important than;

- A guitar constructed to target dimensions;
...
can you elaborate on what you mean by this?
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 01-12-2015, 10:31 PM
iim7V7IM7's Avatar
iim7V7IM7 iim7V7IM7 is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: An Exit Off the Turnpike in New Jersey
Posts: 3,605
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mc1 View Post
can you elaborate on what you mean by this?
I mean having a target thickness based on dimension vs. using flexure or tap tone of the specific set dictate the target thickness. Shaping braces to a target dimension/geometry vs. evaluating how they are interacting with the top or back in situ to create a desired mechanical properties.
__________________
Acoustic Flat Tops by: Bashkin | Blanchard | Brondel | Buscarino | Chasson | Klepper | Kukich | Sexauer
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 01-13-2015, 05:07 AM
murrmac123's Avatar
murrmac123 murrmac123 is offline
AGF Sponsor
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Edinburgh, bonny Scotland
Posts: 5,106
Default

I have my doubts that the tone of pre-war Martins (or post-war either) was achieved by tap-tuning rather than constructing to dimensions.

I could be wrong, of course ...
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 01-13-2015, 05:12 AM
Silly Moustache Silly Moustache is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: UK/EU
Posts: 13,751
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mc1 View Post
just as a minor spelling point, it's "torrefied", is it not? i looked it up as i sometimes spell it one way and at other times another.
Yes, thanks. My Error - a mis-spelling by an Englishman! What next?
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 01-13-2015, 05:17 AM
Silly Moustache Silly Moustache is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: UK/EU
Posts: 13,751
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7 View Post
My current opinion is that a guitar constructed with:

- Well seasoned, quartersawn woods;
- By a master luthier skilled in the art who has;
- An understanding of the goals and playing style of a guitarist and;
- Adjusts their build based upon this understanding and the properties of the materials on the bench;

Is far more important than;

- A guitar constructed to target dimensions;
- Using top woods that have been exposed to simulated conditions
- To accelerate the kinetics of physical changes that occur with real-time static aging (no playing).

I am not saying that it does nothing. I would argue the top list results in a first order effect and the latter is likely a second order effect. There is too much focus on the novelty of static age, and no recognition that the guitars have not been played nor have they been built with an understanding of their owner nor the mechanical properties of the woods used.

My $.02
Eric, I find that difficult to argue with - I think you have stated that very well, and logically.

I have no intention of changing or upgrading my guitars - even my "basic" Sitka topped Collings and Santa Cruz, but for us fading Baby boomers who (like me) feel that we don't have the playing time left to break in and open up new adi-topped instruments - this may be a good way of getting us old fellows to part with some more green.

Ah - if I were only 25 years younger!
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 01-13-2015, 05:27 AM
iim7V7IM7's Avatar
iim7V7IM7 iim7V7IM7 is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: An Exit Off the Turnpike in New Jersey
Posts: 3,605
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by murrmac123 View Post
I have my doubts that the tone of pre-war Martins (or post-war either) was achieved by tap-tuning rather than constructing to dimensions.

I could be wrong, of course ...
Here's a question to ponder...

Today, if you are presented in a room with a dozen D-28s or OM-28s do they all sound the same to you, or do some sound better than others? They have been built to dimension, but have wood sets (tops and backs) with differing properties. I suspect that there will be some as a result that will sound better to you. Do you think that the ones that you didn't like as much 70-years later (or assuming the top treatment simulates that) will sound better than the one's that you liked when they were new? My point is even with a treated top, like any factory guitar you need to play a bunch of these to find one that you like. The pleasing euphonics of the degradation process does not overcome the fundamental structural differences. The process cannot overcome that basic limitation of a factory process.
__________________
Acoustic Flat Tops by: Bashkin | Blanchard | Brondel | Buscarino | Chasson | Klepper | Kukich | Sexauer
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 01-13-2015, 05:29 AM
iim7V7IM7's Avatar
iim7V7IM7 iim7V7IM7 is online now
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: An Exit Off the Turnpike in New Jersey
Posts: 3,605
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly Moustache View Post
Eric, I find that difficult to argue with - I think you have stated that very well, and logically.

I have no intention of changing or upgrading my guitars - even my "basic" Sitka topped Collings and Santa Cruz, but for us fading Baby boomers who (like me) feel that we don't have the playing time left to break in and open up new adi-topped instruments - this may be a good way of getting us old fellows to part with some more green.

Ah - if I were only 25 years younger!
iim7V7IM7 = Bob
__________________
Acoustic Flat Tops by: Bashkin | Blanchard | Brondel | Buscarino | Chasson | Klepper | Kukich | Sexauer
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 01-13-2015, 06:57 AM
mc1 mc1 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: nova scotia
Posts: 12,899
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7 View Post
I mean having a target thickness based on dimension vs. using flexure or tap tone of the specific set dictate the target thickness. Shaping braces to a target dimension/geometry vs. evaluating how they are interacting with the top or back in situ to create a desired mechanical properties.
thanks, that helps a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silly Moustache View Post
Yes, thanks. My Error - a mis-spelling by an Englishman! What next?
eric, (), it's not just you, it's also me and it would seem seem like more than half of those who use the term.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 01-13-2015, 07:14 AM
matthewpartrick's Avatar
matthewpartrick matthewpartrick is offline
In flagrante ex-officio
 
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Key West, FL
Posts: 4,731
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by justonwo View Post
I think it's very hard for these companies to innovate when everyone looks back to their performance 80+ years ago as the good ol' days. I applaud them for trying something new. I don't know if the process works, but I have played two Bourgeois OMs with torrefied tops, and both sounded exceptional to me.
It's true they are competing with themselves. I was talking with a luthier last night and we both noted that the standard OM design with 14 frets and flat shoulders was kind of a happy accident that works well, sounds great and has been universally copied, but may not have been well thought out beyond "let's smoosh" the upper bout so we can reach an extra two frets."
__________________
2009 Martin 000-28ECM
2009 Martin 000-42ECM
2014 Martin 000-45ECM
1930 Martin OM-28
2015 Baranik Meridian
2015 Giacomel Saturno
2017 LeGeyt Parlour

On Deck: 2019 Brondel A2c, 2019 Circa OM-18/21, 2020 LeGeyt CLM

The Clueless Audiophile demystifying the two channel hi fi audio market for the clueless among us
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 01-13-2015, 07:32 AM
psychojohn psychojohn is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2013
Location: Rome, GA
Posts: 2,571
Default

Fascinating to me that by controlled drying/heating of wood, they can target a particular year guitar's tone.
__________________
12 Fret Tinker Dread
12 Fret EJ Henderson Dread
12 Fret Hotrod Tricone
13 Fret Charis SJ
Martin D-41
Halcyon 12 Fret 000
A&L Ami
McIlroy A30c
Taylor 610 LTD
Martin DCPA1
Seagull Original
Gretsch White Falcon
Epi LP 60's Tribute Plus (Ebony)
Epi LP 60's Tribute Plus (HC Burst)
Epi Swingster Royale
Gibson LP Trad Pro II
Godin Exit 22
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 01-13-2015, 07:36 AM
mc1 mc1 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: nova scotia
Posts: 12,899
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by psychojohn View Post
Fascinating to me that by controlled drying/heating of wood, they can target a particular year guitar's tone.
on the other hand, one torrefied top was targeted as from the 1930s, and the other was no specific date. to me that indicated hype of one sort or another.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 01-13-2015, 07:39 AM
Silly Moustache Silly Moustache is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: UK/EU
Posts: 13,751
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HHP View Post
I'd be very surprised if the people who believe guitars "open up" would not also think their torrrified guitars also "open up". So, nothing changes.

.
I think you might be missing the point of this new process/offering - as I think they are supposed to be "pre-opened-up and played-in" as it were.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 01-13-2015, 07:59 AM
Silly Moustache Silly Moustache is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: UK/EU
Posts: 13,751
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7 View Post
I mean having a target thickness based on dimension vs. using flexure or tap tone of the specific set dictate the target thickness. Shaping braces to a target dimension/geometry vs. evaluating how they are interacting with the top or back in situ to create a desired mechanical properties.
My interpretation is that Martins, Gibsons etc., are not tap tuned or tested for strength/bendiness - but made to a "formula" so that each top will have the same thickness etc, so that if a batch (6 or maybe 600) although all the virtually identical tops will have different strengths and velocity of sound etc, so one, or more might work wonderfully but others might be mediocre or have more resonance for some notes and less on others etc.

Smaller more expensive and more craftsmen like made instruments will be all made to a standard but someone skilled will assess each top and adjust thickness (even by a couple of thou, or even reject some tops) - to ensure that every unit is made to give its very best.


Please folks - watch this video.



By the way - whilst Bill Collings seems to be telling the guy with the 'tache how to do it - the guy (Bruce Van Wart) is actually (I understand) the guy that selects and suits the top, and he seems to do a ****ed fine job judging by mine.

"The best ones are the ones that have been humanly manipulated to be a great guitar". (Bill Collings)
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 01-13-2015, 08:06 AM
SJ VanSandt SJ VanSandt is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 1,796
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iim7V7IM7 View Post
Here's a question to ponder...

Today, if you are presented in a room with a dozen D-28s or OM-28s do they all sound the same to you, or do some sound better than others? They have been built to dimension, but have wood sets (tops and backs) with differing properties. I suspect that there will be some as a result that will sound better to you. Do you think that the ones that you didn't like as much 70-years later (or assuming the top treatment simulates that) will sound better than the one's that you liked when they were new? My point is even with a treated top, like any factory guitar you need to play a bunch of these to find one that you like. The pleasing euphonics of the degradation process does not overcome the fundamental structural differences. The process cannot overcome that basic limitation of a factory process.
My understanding of the Authentic line is that they are all built in the custom shop and are essentially hand-built. I would bet money that they are tap tuned, whether Martin admits it or not. Not run-of-the-mill factory guitars at all. True, they are not built to a specific person's ideal specifications or tailored to their individual playing style, but it's really not that hard for most of us to choose among the various models offered for one that will work fine.

My experience with torrefied guitars so far is that I hear a distinct and immediate improvement in sound over a similar model without it. I think it's as noticeable a difference as that between a solid wood guitar and one with laminate back and sides - not a subtle difference at all. Maybe it's not as great a difference as buying custom-tailored vs. ready-to-wear, but that's not really relevant to many of us. And why not both, anyway? I wonder if Bruce Sexauer or Howard Klepper would build with torrefied wood if it was requested and they could acquire it?
__________________
Allison AJ, Kinnaird OM
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Custom Shop

Thread Tools



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:25 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=