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  #16  
Old 12-26-2001, 03:50 PM
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tbondo tbondo is offline
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Mapletrees,

A couple of entries back, you were building a c major triad (or chord) by finding the 3rd scale degree (note) "E" and then you talked about finding the third from "E" in the C major scale (G).....I've been doing some reading on the dotty subject of music theory, and I'm sure that other folks talk about the triad and it's formation from the root to the third and the fifth (all derived from the root of "C")....so, my question is ...what you pointing us towards////.....the interval between c and e being a third, and the interval between e and g being a third?????? the vibrancy of thirds???? But, the inquiring mind wants to know "whatta bout steps???? In the harmonic scale, the c to e distance is 4 "1/2" steps, while the e to g distance is 3 "1/2" steps....what if anything does that mean????

Check out the pictures of the TBSM on the gallery (koa series, second from the top).

t
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  #17  
Old 12-26-2001, 08:43 PM
mapletrees mapletrees is offline
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toiletbowlondo,


Check out the pictures of the TBSM? the ToiletBowl Sig Mod?

*****Attention all Koa owners*****

Shut your bathroom door when taking pictures of your $$$$$$Koa Taylor....

ok....

just kidding obviously....but I'm running out of name variations....



getting back to that Root, 3rd, 5th...

you're exactly right....but go back and peek at what I was typing....you'll notice I mentioned the 5th (consonance and dissonance)...just another case of what was supposed to a very short post that went off in different directions.....and the original purpose got tossed aside....never got to the intended stuff...and of course the thought that was the deviation didn't get finished either...hey, you're not paying for this...(smile)

you do want to understand basic triads (and the more complicated chords that follow) in terms of intervals, not just formulas such as R35 or R45 or R357b9, R3#5#9 etc...

those formulas don't just pop out of the blue....

onward....

3+3=5

huh?

aaarrrrrrggggggghhhhhhh gotta go....
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  #18  
Old 12-27-2001, 08:19 AM
mapletrees mapletrees is offline
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tbondohhhhhthat'saprettyguitar,

in the spirit of the Taylor warranty cards they advertise on ebay, my big Christmas present - the coupon/gift certificate for the radiator flush - is not signed nor turned in....

if you are interested in a Christmas gift exchange.....



back to this...and again...apologies for what is a really simple little concept getting dragged out for way too long.....

want to make sure you understand the underlying structure of what's going on....the inquiring mind is good...what you were asking about the steps makes all the difference in the world......

if you were to see a C major triad written in TAB such as

xxx553 you don't want to just 'see' a root, 3rd, and 5th...you'd also like to be able to 'see' all the 'juicy' (now that's a good word!) stuff that lies within and about that triad...

you want to be able to 'see' the shapes of thirds across strings 3 and 2

you want to be able to 'see' the shapes of thirds across strings 2 and 1

you want to be able to 'see' the shapes of the 6ths that result from dropping or inverting either one of those 3rds...

you want to be able to 'see' how all those intervals lie within whatever relevant scales might be involved with the music at the given moment.....whether the basic (but juicy!)major pent, minor pent, mixolydian, some hybrid, some more advanced non-diatonic application of superimposing a triad to create altered tones requiring resolution or WHATEVER

you want it to happen instantly and effortlessly, too....this musical stuff on the fretboard needs to 'light up' and be instantly at your disposal...or your 'knowledge' PROBABLY isn't going to be too too helpful to your actual playing...might actually get in the way of your playing..

I have to take back my offer to exchange gifts...

Looks like I'm off to the garage...

and this gets dragged on some more....
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  #19  
Old 12-27-2001, 01:04 PM
mapletrees mapletrees is offline
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ok, got in a minor accident on the way to the garage and now I need a new radiator....

still got my coupon if you're interested in a fair trade...

mmmmpphhh....

this driving stuff is dangerous...

when are they going to invent those personal fly about like astronauts backpack gizmos?


The C major scale again...

C D E F G A B C D E F G A B C....

'stack' (hey tbondo, that's probably another word you like!)

where was I...

stack thirds from C until you've got three notes...

you should get CEG


let's look at what we've got within that cluster of notes of CEG

the interval from C to E is a major 3rd (and like you noted above, that's four half steps or more simply thought of perhaps as two whole steps)...recall that an interval of a major 3rd sounds pleasant to the ear...

still within that cluster of notes of CEG now....

the interval from E to G is a minor third (and as you noted above it's an interval of three half-steps or more commonly thought of as 'one and a half' steps...if you were looking in a TAB book for example and they indicate a bent note with a "1 1/2" it means bend the note 1 1/2 steps or equivalently three half steps or equivalently three frets worth)

where were we?

E to G was a minor 3rd...again, recall that an interval of a minor third is pleasant to the ear...

within that triad of the notes CEG think of the C to E interval as the 'lower interval', and the E to G interval as the 'upper interval'....that's common language...now if you look at what we might call the 'outer interval' which is the interval from C to G...you've correctly noted that it is an interval of a 5th (a perfect 5th).....

and again....we agreed long ago that a perfect 5th is a pleasant sounding interval (a consonance as opposed to a dissonance)

so what we find is that when we take a major scale and start stacking up intervals of a third we can get pleasant sounding clusters of notes...(there's other clusters to still be discussed)

when you hear the 'triad' or 'chord' consisting of the notes CEG you hear a pleasant major 3rd, a pleasant minor 3rd, and a pleasant 5th...you get a pleasant sounding chord...

well anyways...

onward...

wait, one more thing about that CEG triad....

what are we going to name it...

even though it is made up of a major and minor interval....the lower interval (the C to E interval) seems to dictate the sound you hear....

play xxx553 (C,E, and G) and you should hear an overall major or upbeat 'quality'....we'll call it a C major triad...

if instead you were to play

xxx543 (C, Eb, and G) you would hear an overall minor quality and you'll see later we'd call this a C minor triad (what you might be able to take note of is that this C minor triad has a lower interval C to Eb that is a minor third....and an upper interval of Eb to G that is a major third......moral of the story is that the lower interval is responsible for whether or not you hear an overall major or minor quality....

off to fart around with the car...

but go back on your own for now and look at the structure of the following triads within the C major scale ...

Do CEG......FAC.....and GBD share the same structure as one another? Hopefully you get "yes".

Do DFA....EGB....and ACE share the same structure as one another? Hopefully you get "yes".

What about that last triad...the one built from the note B....which would be BDF....should get a different underlying structure....


I'm having mother in law thoughts again when I hear that BDF...
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  #20  
Old 12-27-2001, 02:17 PM
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Want to make sure I'm following your thinking Master trees..

Triad Patterns CEG, FAC, GBD all have a 2 & 1 1/2 step interval

Triad patterns DFA, EGB, ACE all have a 1 1/2 & 2 step interval

Triad (oddball) BDF have 1 1/2, 1 1/2

Am I thinking correctly?
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  #21  
Old 12-27-2001, 06:14 PM
LarryH in Texas LarryH in Texas is offline
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And carrying taylorsmitten's logic one additional step,

The first three triads will be called C major, F major and G major,

The second three will be called D minor, E minor and A minor,

The last one has some weird name I can't remember and can't find quickly.
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  #22  
Old 12-27-2001, 08:20 PM
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tbondo tbondo is offline
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That "B" based stack would be a B diminished...sorta the oddball of the group...

but a common theme for the vii or 7th scale degree in a Major scale triad set....

stack, I do like that word....the triad notes look like stacks on the staff....
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  #23  
Old 12-27-2001, 08:23 PM
mapletrees mapletrees is offline
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taylorsmitten...

...Master trees??????

...oh no

...no no no

...none of that weirdo stuff....

....she just got pink boots...pretty pink boots..

...not black boots and a whip...


but on the topic of triads at hand...you're right of course...

and just to phrase differently (just to add more language if someone is trying to learn)...

no,

nuts,

no time tonight...




Larry, you're right, too......that BDF triad is called ' B diminished'...that 'outer interval' from B to F is three whole steps...often referred to as a 'tritone', or a 'flatted 5th, or a 'diminished 5th'.....if you were to write out the B major scale, you would see that the 5th note of that scale would be the note F#....

the note F# would be called the 'perfect 5th' of B....

if you shrink, or reduce, or lower, or flat that B to F# interval by a half-step, then we'd get the interval of B to F....that's where the language 'flatted 5th' and its synonym 'diminished 5th' come from....we use the same language for the triad



and tbondo...another reason for wanting to understand the 'stacking' 3rds idea...

the way we name chords is tied directly into that notion of building up stacks of thirds......know how you see the numbers 7, 9, 11, 13 often in the naming of chords.....?

not a complete thought here at all....but just think for a second.....

R 3 5 7 9 11 13
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Indeed, there is something in the current DC/NY culture that equates a lack of unthinking boosterism with a lack of patriotism. As if not being drunk on the latest Dow gains is somehow un-American. - Arianna Huffington May 11, 2009
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  #24  
Old 12-27-2001, 08:30 PM
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Lisa Lisa is offline
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Mapletrees

the Master trees was, in my mind, a reminiscience of the old Kung Fu television show days (grab the pebble from my hand, Grasshopper...)

No kinky stuff here

Anyway it was good for a laugh, my, what a mind you have!
and no I have had no desire to put you on an "ignore list". This is probably because being a mother of a couple of kids whom I homeschool, I completely understand fragmented thoughts. In fact they are a way of life for me. I dream of the days when I once knew of an uninterrupted conversation...

Lisa

Staying tuned for more theory...

Last edited by TaylorSmitten; 12-28-2001 at 03:51 PM.
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  #25  
Old 12-28-2001, 07:23 AM
LarryH in Texas LarryH in Texas is offline
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Thanks, Tom, Lisa and MT,

I know about "diminished" but my references don't show them as triads, but as tetrads (?) (four-note chords).

Guess I need to wait for Monsieur Trees to finish triads before moving on to taller stacks . . .

I think I know where you're going, but will wait for the punch line.
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  #26  
Old 01-01-2002, 05:16 AM
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Where you be mapletrees?
All us kids are ready for our next theory lesson
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  #27  
Old 01-04-2002, 07:41 AM
teleplyr teleplyr is offline
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Talking I'm reading too!!

Just thought I'd let you guys know I'm lingering around this topic as well.....

I also wanted to beg the Tree man to come back and add to this wonderful lesson...

I NEED TO KNOW THIS STUFF.......... Must have more theory!!!....

Oh yeah, thanks for taking the time to do this!!

Brad
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  #28  
Old 05-02-2002, 04:53 PM
mapletrees mapletrees is offline
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Smile MetroGnomes!

Think we'll continue on a new thread...this one's getting awfully cluttered (for too little content)....

besides....my coupon expired.....
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