The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Show and Tell

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 03-15-2001, 07:34 AM
mapletrees mapletrees is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 3,898
Smile Intervals and The Modes

The Basic Music Theory Chapter 6 post concerns intervals.......

.....thought I'd take a detour....


If you're working through Mark Hanson's books did you notice something a little 'funny' or 'strange' when you got to "White House Blues" in his second book?.....a different sort of sound?....it's modal..

...wait a second....what's that?...say that again?....you're still not working through Mark Hanson's two books?...you're interested in fingerpicking and fingerstyle in general and you still haven't gotten those books?...worse yet...you got the books and you're not following his right hand suggestions?....you're just picking through the tablature with any old fingers?....and (gulp) you didn't use a metronome to speed up AND slow down each exercise in that book....ok, quick...whichever is the case, write that down and bring the note to your doctor....that'll help him/her figure out which part of your brain was injured in the accident.....

..it's just a joke....work through those books PROPERLY and your playing should take off...

Back we go....Modes....

Even though "White House Blues" utilizes the G Major scale for essentially the whole song, the tune does not center on a G chord...Instead, it centers around an A minor chord (and a Dadd4 chord falling back to A minor) and gives us the sound of the mode A Dorian.....sounds old...errrrr....make that Olde....starts sounding like something from some foggy and mystical place in England...just like Scarborough Fair or Greensleeves (aka What Child is This). I should mention Greensleeves also uses the A harmonic minor.......but the first F# in that tune definitely gets your ears Dorianized...

I'll get right back to this....it's how I quickly convince 17 year old Metal Heads that we are indeed going to learn to read music and we'll be starting with things like "Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star".....Any instructors out there? Shift it to Phrygian....loudly!

Everyone plays the same 12 notes.....

[ 03-15-2001: Message edited by: mapletrees ]
__________________
Indeed, there is something in the current DC/NY culture that equates a lack of unthinking boosterism with a lack of patriotism. As if not being drunk on the latest Dow gains is somehow un-American. - Arianna Huffington May 11, 2009
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-15-2001, 11:37 AM
mapletrees mapletrees is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 3,898
Smile

Hello self.

Hi.

Ready to add to your own post?

Yes you are...uh...yes I am...whatever....

Let's get on to...

THE BASIC CONCEPT OF MODES

...and by the way this is relative to all forms of music, whether metal, the blues, or pretty fingerstyle....

simple concept that again is easily demonstrated in a few seconds..... but here comes megatyping....

..we'll use one of the 'creepier' modes to demonstrate....has more effect...at least on headbangers....

Play a C major scale....

C D E F G A B C.....

now in terms of the C root or C bass....

what you hear is C and its major 2nd (D)

C and its major 3rd (E)

C and its 4th (F)

C and its 5th (G)

C and its major 6th (A)

C and its major 7th (B)

C and its octave (C)


Now suppose you take the notes of C major (the SAME EXACT notes) but you don't play them from C to C. Instead, let's play them from E to E.

That would be...

E F G A B C D E...it's the same notes as the C major scale....but what happened to our intervals if we take E as the root - if we take E as our bass note - if we take E as our reference point?

E to F is a minor 2nd - remember, the C major scale started with C to D which is a major 2nd - that's a totally different sound...and let's just stop here and make sure we're on the same wavelength....probably the quickest way to figure out what intervals we've got in this E F G A B C D E scale is to compare this scale to the E Major scale....

E major scale = E F# G# A B C# D# E

....major scales are always Root, maj2, maj3 , 4, 5, maj6, maj7, octave....

Onward....

E to G is a minor 3rd - remember, the C major scale had a major 3rd - again, the same exact notes are giving us a different sound because our root, our bass, our reference point has changed...

E to A is a 4th

E to B is a 5th

E to C is a minor 6th - recall that the C major scale contains a major 6th

E to D is a minor 7th - recall that the C major scale contains a major 7th

E to E is the octave



ok, now play a C major scale.....happy little C major scale....happy little friendly sounds...we could even play a nice little happy melody like Twinkle Twinkle...happy happy...nobody's mom is alarmed...

...now bonk your low E string and let it ring out while you play the C major scale FROM E TO E on the higher strings...you don't hear those happy intervals anymore....we start getting those darker minor intervals....it's not at all like C major anymore even though we're playing the same exact notes that are found in C major....you're hearing what's known as the Phrygian mode...it's what you get when you play any major scale from the 3rd to the 3rd...do it on a cranked electric....put in bends...bend E to F...bend D to E....bend B to C....rip through this mode...think Metallica....throw in some muted E5, F5, G5, and C5 chords....spooks moms....

there are other modes....and I'll get to applying this to more pleasant fingerstyle thoughts....

[ 03-15-2001: Message edited by: mapletrees ]

[ 03-15-2001: Message edited by: mapletrees ]
__________________
Indeed, there is something in the current DC/NY culture that equates a lack of unthinking boosterism with a lack of patriotism. As if not being drunk on the latest Dow gains is somehow un-American. - Arianna Huffington May 11, 2009
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-30-2001, 09:52 AM
mapletrees mapletrees is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 3,898
Smile

a different example relating to modes..


Take the C major scale again for example...

That's the notes

C D E F G A B C

In the prior example we played this scale from the 3rd note to the 3rd note (E to E)

Let's play it from the 2nd note to the 2nd note (D to D)

That would be D E F G A B C D

Now, in relation to our new root note of D, this scale does not contain the same intervals as the C major scale (even though it contains the same darn notes as the C major scale)

This scale with D as the root note has the following intervals

root D

D to E major 2nd

D to F minor 3rd (as opposed to a major 3rd like the C major scale would have)

D to G perfect 4th

D to A perfect 5th

D to B major 6th

D to C minor 7th (as opposed to a major 7th like the C major scale would have)

D to D the octave

Again, this scale does not have the same layout of intervals that the C major scale has, and therefore does not sound the same.....

...better give it a different name than C major.....we call it D Dorian

Any major scale played from its 2nd note to its 2nd note is referred to as the 'dorian mode'

example - If you play the F major scale which is

F G A Bb C D E F

from its 2nd note to its 2nd note (G to G) we get

G A Bb C D E F G and call it the G Dorian mode (could call it G Dorian scale if you wish)

note that G Dorian happens to contain the notes of G minor pentatonic, also....


Let's go back to C major, play intervals of a 6th in C major, then do the same but with a D bass note ringing out to hear how it changes to the 'minorish' Dorian sound...this is what happens in the intro to Bon Jovi's 'Wanted Dead or Alive'on a 12-string.....now look....Mapletrees most definitely does not run around in spandex pants....but if this type of stuff is good enough for Taylor to decide to build a Richie Sambora Signature guitar...it's got to be worth learning.....

That other post about intervals will eventually explain 6ths better....but here without explanation are 6ths in the key of C...

first, some notation....

x32010 would mean a basic C chord

xx0232 would mean a basic D chord

ok, intervals of a 6th in C major up the 4th and 2nd string...

xx2x1x

xx3x3x

xx5x5x

xx7x6x

xx9x8x

xx 10 x 10 x

xx 12 x 12 x

and back to

xx 14 x 13 x

That should sound 'majorish' to you...

Now, let's do the same intervals out on the 3rd and 1st strings....

xxx9x8

xxx 10 x 10

xxx 12 x 12

xxx 14 x 13

we're running out of fretboard on an acoustic here so to continue let's move down an octave..

xxx4x3

xxx5x5

xxx7x7

and back to

xxx9x8 to finish...

Richie Sambora uses those shapes on the 3rd and first strings with the open D on the 4th string ringing out to play 'Dead or Alive"......

can you find it?...

he starts with

xx 0 14 x 13

and works down the shapes until he gets to

xx 0 2 x 1

the only shape he skips is

xxx7x7

Can you hear how the sound of the scale has been completely changed to a minor one?


We'll pick something from Clapton's 'Tears in Heaven' next.....mixolydian thirds....

Ask if you don't get something (and you want to get it)
__________________
Indeed, there is something in the current DC/NY culture that equates a lack of unthinking boosterism with a lack of patriotism. As if not being drunk on the latest Dow gains is somehow un-American. - Arianna Huffington May 11, 2009
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-30-2001, 03:35 PM
mikedkw mikedkw is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Kansas City, Mo
Posts: 25
Post

Mapletrees, I just wanted to thank you for your posts, I really look forward to them. I also wanted to let you know that we are out here listening......
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-30-2001, 05:38 PM
mapletrees mapletrees is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 3,898
Smile

mikedkw...that's cool...

Mixolydian mode....

When you play a major scale from its 5th note to its 5th note you get what is known as the mixolydian mode...

Let's take the A major scale....(Clapton's Tears in Heaven is in the key of A major)

A major scale is

A B C# D E F# G# A

Playing the above scale from the 5th note to the 5th note (from E to E) we get

E F# G# A B C# D E

ugh....Mrs. Mapletrees has a job for me to do.......
__________________
Indeed, there is something in the current DC/NY culture that equates a lack of unthinking boosterism with a lack of patriotism. As if not being drunk on the latest Dow gains is somehow un-American. - Arianna Huffington May 11, 2009
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 04-02-2001, 07:48 PM
mapletrees mapletrees is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 3,898
Smile

Back to E mixolydian....and again, that's just the notes of the A major scaled played from E to E (the 5th note to the 5th note)

The mixolydian mode is very important since it is directly related to dominant chords...

If the following doesn't make sense, ask, or just wait until more is posted in the music theory posts and then see if it makes sense...

E Mixolydian is the notes

E F# G# A B C# D E

First of all note that this is different than the E major scale...the E major scale would have a D# in it....makes all the difference...one of the most important little things in music...

I'm getting off track again...but

play 0xx897.....that's an Emaj7 chord with the note D# on the 3rd string...

then play 0xx797....that's an E7 chord (E Dominant Seventh) with the note D on the 3rd string...totally different sound because of that one note difference....you should notice that if you fingerpick across the Emaj7 chord your ears don't feel much of a need to switch to a new chord...but if you fingerpick across the Emaj7, then fingerpick across the E7 (the E dominant seventh) your ears demand that you switch off the E7 to a new chord...and of course what they want to hear is the chord A major..

play the above Emaj7, then the above E7, then play

x0x655 which is an A major chord.

Not that you're going to get it from this explanation alone probably...but the thing to be learned above is that dominant chords(the ones with just a letter and a 7 in their name) like to return to (resolve to) whatever they are the 5th of.

E7 likes to turn into an A chord
A1 B2 C#3 D4 E5

G7 likes to turn into a C chord
C1 D2 E3 F4 G5

play G7 as 3x300x
play C as x3201x

or play G7 as 7x576x
play C as 8x555x

D7 likes to rurn into a G chord
G1 A2 B3 C4 D5

play D7 as 2x021x
play G as 3x000x

or play D7 as xx4535
play G as xx5433

or play D7 as 10 x 10 11 10 x
play G as x 10 9 7 8 x

etc.....

haven't gotten to the Tears in Heaven part yet.....he plays E7 moving to A major by use of thirds repeatedly in that song....he 'stretches' out an E7 by using thirds...

[ 04-02-2001: Message edited by: mapletrees ]
__________________
Indeed, there is something in the current DC/NY culture that equates a lack of unthinking boosterism with a lack of patriotism. As if not being drunk on the latest Dow gains is somehow un-American. - Arianna Huffington May 11, 2009
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 04-04-2001, 06:38 PM
mapletrees mapletrees is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 3,898
Smile

we'll play thirds up the 3rd and 2nd string in the key of A, first with an A bass note ringing out to create the sound of A major - then with an E bass note ringing out to create the sound of E mixolydian...

remember, the A major scale is

A B C# D E F# G#

in case you're lost...you can find the A major scale up the 3rd string on the following frets...

2 4 6 7 9 11 13 14

If we add on the 3rd or each note from the A major scale on the 2nd string you should get

xxx22x

xxx43x

xxx65x

xxx77x

xxx99x

xxx 11 10 x

xxx 13 12 x or xxx10x (that's a 1 and a zero)

xxx 14 14 x or xxx22x

Play through those intervals with your open 5th string bass note A ringing out...you might pick a pattern such as 5th string, 3rd string, 2nd string, 3rd string on each interval....

compare the sound with the E bass note ringing out ....

play the following...get the bass notes correct and don't let the E bass note 'bleed' into the A bass note (mute the E bass at the same instant you play the A bass......Mark Hanson's 2nd fingerpicking book has much helpful information about 'damping' (or muting) unwanted strings....really helps you get control of your hands if you work at it....of course if you don't work at it........duh....If you don't know what book I'm referring to, ask.

play 0xx10x then x0x22x....you're hearing part of an E7 chord turning into part of an A chord....it's a lot less 'clunky' than playing the whole chords...but your ears really still hear the chords

play 0xx43x then x0x22x...again it's part of an E7 turning into part of an A chord

What Eric Clapton does in Tears in Heaven repeatedly before returning to the opening signature lick is alternate the following intervals with an E bass note

xxx10x then E bass (and repeat) then

xxx22x then E bass then

xxx43x

then the signature lick with HO's and PO's

it's simple but effective...and it's a lot more interesting than just strumming an E7 then an A chord....when he plays those intervals with the E bass you hear all the notes in an E7 chord (E G# B D)....they're just spread out or stretched out using intervals...

If you don't have it, get the TAB book for Eric Clapton's Unplugged...no reason you can't sound at least that good with an acoustic...

same exact sort of thing happens with an A7 chord and intervals of a tenth every time John Denver returns to the opening chord of My Sweet Lady

you get 2 beats of A7 x0202x

then the following tenths

x0xx2x

x2xx3x

x4xx5x

then the opening Dmaj7 chord of

xx0 11 10 9

or

0xx 11 10 9 with a detuned drop-D bass (don't play that with an E bass, grrrrr....)

Again, the A7 is stretched out using intervals of the D major scale (A mixolydian) before returning to what A is the fifth of - a D chord...a Dmaj7 chord here actually...

common, common move...

There is a very good John Denver authentic TAB book available...ask if you are interested....it's a must (I think) if you're into his music..especially if you are in the earlier stages of playing and are looking for something 'real' but very playable...

this isn't done....

[ 04-04-2001: Message edited by: mapletrees ]

[ 04-04-2001: Message edited by: mapletrees ]

[ 04-04-2001: Message edited by: mapletrees ]
__________________
Indeed, there is something in the current DC/NY culture that equates a lack of unthinking boosterism with a lack of patriotism. As if not being drunk on the latest Dow gains is somehow un-American. - Arianna Huffington May 11, 2009
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 04-04-2001, 09:30 PM
tbondo's Avatar
tbondo tbondo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Merritt Island, FL
Posts: 2,813
Cool

Bwana Trees,

I fogotted (as my daughter says) which thread had the name/titles of the Fingerstyle books (I and II)...so, please remind me.

Thanks for all your sharing .... I keep re-reading the things I don't understand until the light comes on....and thanks for the info on Mark Hanson books (including where they can be obtained if you know)
__________________
Tom
More than deserved, less than desired
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 04-04-2001, 11:22 PM
Imperfectly Imperfectly is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Miami U
Posts: 79
Thumbs up

wow, thanks mr mapletrees. 'perfect' 4th and 5th? this is all pretty confusing for me but gets me thinking about things that would had never occured to me. i never imagined that there was so much theory in playing the geetar. thanks for all your posts, they are helping me tremendiously.
__________________
got a garden of songs where i grow all my thoughts, wish i could harvest one or two for some small talk.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 04-08-2001, 07:36 AM
mapletrees mapletrees is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 3,898
Smile

tbondo

For fingerpicking books look in the General Discussion area under a post called Excellent Fingerstyle Something er other....

There's the 2 Mark Hanson Books mentioned....

There's 2 books by a guy named Brett Duncan....

There's 3 books by the National Guitar Workshop listed...

There's also a series of articles from Fingerstyle Magazine mentioned...

Where are you at in your fingerpicking?
What is fun?
What can you play?
What can't you play?
What do you want to be able to play?
What seems impossible?
etc...

[ 04-08-2001: Message edited by: mapletrees ]
__________________
Indeed, there is something in the current DC/NY culture that equates a lack of unthinking boosterism with a lack of patriotism. As if not being drunk on the latest Dow gains is somehow un-American. - Arianna Huffington May 11, 2009
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 04-08-2001, 02:07 PM
tbondo's Avatar
tbondo tbondo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Merritt Island, FL
Posts: 2,813
Thumbs up

MT,

Many thanks ... found the thread and accentonmusic.com...ordered both books with CDs.....

As to my fingerstyle prowess, I'm at "zero" and climbing....just beginning to get some skill at sight reading (after playing chords for 30 years) by playing Beatles songs .....this after getting interested in music theory through discussions with my son (in college taking 2nd semester of MT)

thanks for your assist and instructions in this thread.
__________________
Tom
More than deserved, less than desired
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 04-08-2001, 02:39 PM
mapletrees mapletrees is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 3,898
Smile

tbondo

Yahoo!

I would (if I were you) also get the first 2 National Guitar Workshop books (Beginning and Intermediate) - they will definitely expose you to styles (and stuff) that you won't find in the Mark Hanson Books...the only possible knock against the Beginning book is that they spend too much time (in my opinion) on stuff that should have been put in a little book perhaps called Pre-Beginning Fingerstyle. That way they would have had significantly more space to expand on what they do do well....for example....they have a WONDERFUL section of the book devoted to what intervals are and how to incorporate them into fingerstyle pieces... they do out pretty little tunes in the keys of G major and A major....but they could have done some instructional stuff out in every guitar-friendly key...oh well. They have a great section on harp-style playing....again, more, more, more would have been better... Also, on the accompanying CD of the Beginning book sometimes the tunes are done out too slowly (in my opinion)....they have a lot more life if you kick em up a little...all in all, though...it's an excellent book/CD pack...and again, if you compare it to the cost of an instructor, it's an excellent value.

Just another thing to point out...you might know this, you might not....don't be offended if this is completely obvious....

All of these books I've mentioned are geared towards moving you into SOLO fingerstyle guitar playing (the first Mark Hanson book is about Travis picking which is of course a very common accompaniment style - but the first book is also prep for the 2nd book which is solo playing instruction).....what you hear in general in the pop/folk/rock acoustic arena is nothing more than accompaniment (you still need a vocal)....so even though we're talking about a book called 'Beginning Fingerstyle', it's not beginner-level guitar at all...not even close...by the time you were to complete even just that 'Beginning' book of the National Guitar Workshop series, , essentially all popular acoustic type fingerpicking (Blackbird, Tears in Heaven, Stairway to Heaven, Time in a Bottle, Landslide, Vincent, etc...those types of tunes) should (should) seem very,very easy to you if you really have worked through the book well (get a metronome!). That's not a criticism of those songs at all...I love those types of songs....but solo fingerstyle is much more demanding (much more!) in general...practice well and you get really darn good on the guitar...the popular and mainstream stuff will seem easy...

The Intermediate book is significantly more advanced....but you won't find much in the way of repetition from the first book - if you skip the Beginning book, you'll be missing out.....

..for example, they won't repeat the instruction on using intervals in the Intermediate book...even though you will certainly find many examples of the playing of intervals in the Intermediate book...they move on to different instructional ideas in the Intermediate book such as basic arranging techniques, bass lines (use them in many basic blues type tunes), string bending in acoustic settings, triad and inversion usage, intro to DADGAD, etc...good stuff...

I'd also get that Brett Duncan book (the one with 'Licks' in the title) - if not both...good instructional stuff in there..

I think you'll be amazed at how easy it is to go from 'zero' to playing really cool stuff that sounds like two guitars at once! I used to be clueless about advanced styles of fingerpicking...never realized there was any sort of method to the madness...these books really are good...

Happy Twangin'...I guess that would be Happy Fpickin'

[ 04-08-2001: Message edited by: mapletrees ]

[ 04-08-2001: Message edited by: mapletrees ]
__________________
Indeed, there is something in the current DC/NY culture that equates a lack of unthinking boosterism with a lack of patriotism. As if not being drunk on the latest Dow gains is somehow un-American. - Arianna Huffington May 11, 2009
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 04-08-2001, 09:55 PM
tbondo's Avatar
tbondo tbondo is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Merritt Island, FL
Posts: 2,813
Cool

Although I wouldn't be offended anyway (a little like looking a gift horse in the mouth), I had some idea about the musical potential/content based on listening to some of the stuff on the "accent" website....but even better, it ends up being exactly what I'm interested in....having a long history of Leo Kotke/ John Fahey type exposure and the worse voice in 50 states, I tend to enjoy playing sans vocals, and have been attemting to incorporate some of your teachings into "my" arrangements of the songs I like to play....with some success (like understanding what I'm playing versus rote chording and looking for fills/grace notes/bass chords to make the sound "bigger?" or more filling? something on that order).

Since I have a new 2001 510 to keep me interested, am really looking forward to continuing my guitar education.....thanks again for being a teacher
__________________
Tom
More than deserved, less than desired
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 04-09-2001, 11:44 AM
mapletrees mapletrees is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 3,898
Smile

There is no possible way your voice can be worse than mine....I am seriously scary sounding...unbelievable...I do have a vocal instruction book....got it a long time ago and just have not had consistent time where I can be ALONE (as in 14 miles from the nearest ears) to work on it...it seems like a very practical book...

in the National Guitar Workshop series they have a 'bonus' section (an 'in the style of' section)at the end of the first two books...thought I'd mention that in the Intermediate book in that extra section they do out one tune 'in the style of' John Fahey and one for Leo K.

you'll find much additional alternating-bass style practice in the National Guitar Workshop books (along with lots of other stuff), great supplement to the Mark Hanson books

can never get enough of a good thing!
__________________
Indeed, there is something in the current DC/NY culture that equates a lack of unthinking boosterism with a lack of patriotism. As if not being drunk on the latest Dow gains is somehow un-American. - Arianna Huffington May 11, 2009
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 04-09-2001, 01:46 PM
mapletrees mapletrees is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 3,898
Smile

I went back and counted....

the 'Beginning' NGW book has 8 or so basic tunes in the alternating-bass style(in addition to much other stuff)...

the 'Intermediate' NGW book has 11 or so tunes in the alternating-bass style....in addition the Intermediate book has 5 or so tunes that would be put in the category of walking bass as opposed to alternating bass (and again, this book, too, has much other stuff)...

These are tunes that are shorter (in general they are one-pagers) than what you will find in the 2nd Mark Hanson book.....in general they will be a bit simpler - quite a bit simpler... and more easily seen through to completion...that's a more specific reason as to why these books would make for very good additional practice...

Always takes me about 19 posts to get the main idea across
__________________
Indeed, there is something in the current DC/NY culture that equates a lack of unthinking boosterism with a lack of patriotism. As if not being drunk on the latest Dow gains is somehow un-American. - Arianna Huffington May 11, 2009
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > Show and Tell

Thread Tools



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=