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Old 05-14-2012, 03:38 PM
prsplayer12 prsplayer12 is offline
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Default Logic Pro 10 vs. Pro Tools?

Sort of a general question here.. I am minoring in audio and media production at school, and we have a full-fledged recording studio on campus where we have class. Our professor is (apparently) very well known and has toured with Dave Matthews Band in the past as the front of house Sound Engineer, so I don't really question anything that he teaches us. Our studio has some very nice equipment - Genelec 1031A's main monitors, Genelec 7070A LFE, Genelec 2029's for surround, three Metric Halo ULN8's, Soundfield Mk-V B-format processor/SP451, Sony DMX100, some other stuff along with a few very nice microphones. Our main project this semester was to take a B-format recording, process it into stereo and surround being careful to check correlation, discreet routing, etc. and then create a DVD from it with interactive menus etc.

My question is that for the past two years everything we have been learning has been in Logic Pro 10, and I have heard that this is hardly ever used in the field, and Protools is mostly used. Is this correct that Logic is barely ever used in professional settings?
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Old 05-14-2012, 05:10 PM
fdwill fdwill is offline
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Default Logic

I'm unaware of a Logic 10 edition (perhaps it's very new, or you may have been using a prototype). Logic 9 is the latest edition that I'm aware of. It seems very capable of doing everything that Protools can do. Marketing tells us that Protools is the very best (most professional) but there are several other programs that will work just as well. You may be correct that it is more widely used. Think of the concept that good acoustic guitar players only play Martin guitars.
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Old 05-14-2012, 05:50 PM
Joseph Hanna Joseph Hanna is offline
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I'm unaware of a Logic 10 edition (perhaps it's very new, or you may have been using a prototype). Logic 9 is the latest edition that I'm aware of. It seems very capable of doing everything that Protools can do. Marketing tells us that Protools is the very best (most professional) but there are several other programs that will work just as well. You may be correct that it is more widely used. Think of the concept that good acoustic guitar players only play Martin guitars.

Understand that a LARGE portion of audio engineers here in Los Angeles are mixing post audio, not music. That or at very best some combination there in. It's a competitive industry, it's very lucrative and it's full of very talented engineers. It also is not a bad gateway to music only production, particularly for scores. It is (the industry) as a whole totally Pro Tools. It's Pro Tools because it's always been a rock solid platform, because often in Television and Motion Picture production the audio staff can be large and the need for a single platform is vital and the need to seamlessly pass sessions, not only between bays, but also between multiple facilities is often paramount not to mention the compatibility between Avids. In other words when talking to students (and I often do) I am utterly and completely adamant that "marketing" is NOT what makes Pro Tools the industry standard. I've been in this business a long time and I've seen a lot of engineers come and go and sometimes return again. When we, or any other fairly busy production facility need a new engineer we advertise in the trades for a "Pro Tools Engineer". Never...ever a Logic engineer. I'd never, never....even remotely consider someone who only knew Logic as a potential staff engineer. That would be suicide.

I'm certified in Logic 9 and am also a former Digi employee as well as an Apple employee. I've got no dog in the Logic-vs-Pro Tools fight. Logic is a brilliant DAW and to that end there can be NO argument. In many ways and for particular tasks it does what it does better than Pro Tools and quite frankly I've switched to Logic at home for my cues. Still it makes me scratch my head when I hear these colleges preparing their students (at least allegedly) to make a living in the industry and then teaching them Logic. It simply doesn't work that way. I dunno what they're thinking????

Last edited by Joseph Hanna; 05-14-2012 at 07:27 PM.
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Old 05-14-2012, 08:17 PM
prsplayer12 prsplayer12 is offline
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I'm unaware of a Logic 10 edition (perhaps it's very new, or you may have been using a prototype). Logic 9 is the latest edition that I'm aware of. It seems very capable of doing everything that Protools can do. Marketing tells us that Protools is the very best (most professional) but there are several other programs that will work just as well. You may be correct that it is more widely used. Think of the concept that good acoustic guitar players only play Martin guitars.
Yea my bad. That is what I meant. It is Logic 9.

And Joseph, thats what I thought. It is a really really good program as a DAW and other things, but I have always in the Professional audio domain Protools sort of has a monopoly.
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Old 05-15-2012, 06:36 AM
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I'm certainly not a pro but I have to agree with Joseph here. It does seem odd that any Educational program with the purported intent of preparing students for possible employment in the Audio industry would not teach PT as a primary DAW format and then perhaps offer additional classes in Logic, DP , Cuebase etc. For all the reasons Joseph stated.

For personal use it of course does not matter and even professional use if one is allready an in demand established pro who can pic and choose clientele . Or someone producing music for ther own pro release, etc.. things like that . But for someone starting out in the industry I would assume that PT would be a must have prerequisite .

As an example In my limited experience with profesinal studios , one in LA,one in Palo Alto , one in Nashville and two in NYC all had ProTools.
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Old 05-19-2012, 10:09 AM
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I teach Sound Design and Audio Production at Duquesne University. I also produce for NPR, and professionally record classical music.

Our teaching lab has a lot of media software - I teach Sonar, Pro-Tools and Sound Forge. We also teach Logic in our Sound and Recording Program. There is absolutely no reason not to know each of those products reasonably well. In fact in many cases, I use Sonar, Pro-Tools and Sequoia in different phases of the same project. They are all tools and not in any way mutually exclusive of each other.

Can everyone afford to own all of the products? That is a matter of purpose. If your career is in audio - then that investment is appropriate. If you are an independent musician that will make demo's and / or create projects to be mixed and mastered elsewhere - your DAW choice is based on creativity and efficiency not standards.

Summary, I get this question all the time and I feel it is much easier to answer than it appears. At the University where I work, students can buy Pro-Tools, Sonar and Sound Forge all for less than $750 combined total - that is less than one semester of text books in the Law School - of which some of the books won't be used more than 25%. And I'm sure you know that currently AVID offers 3 years of free upgrades to Students. Not too shabby

-D
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Old 05-24-2012, 04:36 PM
Joseph Hanna Joseph Hanna is offline
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I teach Sound Design and Audio Production at Duquesne University. I also produce for NPR, and professionally record classical music.

Our teaching lab has a lot of media software - I teach Sonar, Pro-Tools and Sound Forge. We also teach Logic in our Sound and Recording Program. There is absolutely no reason not to know each of those products reasonably well. In fact in many cases, I use Sonar, Pro-Tools and Sequoia in different phases of the same project. They are all tools and not in any way mutually exclusive of each other.
I tend to agree with you in a general sort of way. The more the merrier. I would however add a slight caveat to that in that all the residents and interns I have trained over the last 12 or so years have ALL come to me boasting a degree AND being an "expert" in Pro Tools. I've never (and I mean NEVER) had one of those guys (or gals) even remotely expert enough to handle even the simplest of tasks when suddenly the pressure of a feed was bearing down upon them. I have had several throw their hands up and walk away though.

My point being is that (as one who hires the audio engineers) it matters not that a potential employee knows Pro Tools and Logic. I'm glad he or she knows Logic but it ain't never gonna be of value to me or the facility. I'd much rather have someone who has mastered Pro Tools.

Like it or not that is, beyond any shadow of any doubt, the skill set they need to survive in the industry I'm in. That is an industry standard requirement and I know of NO production facility in Hollywood that strays from that standard. None.

All of that said there are many, myself included, that use other DAW solutions for personal production needs. Every major composer here in town has a DAW of choice and it OFTEN strays from Pro Tools. Jan Hammer swears by Cubase. Danny Elfman DP. Others heavyweights Logic.

But you don't go to colleges to learn to be Jan Hammer. That kinda stuff isn't easily taught. You do go to school (at least I think) to be prepared to compete in an industry...that's Pro Tools. So it still seems to me that the industry standard is Pro Tools and colleges are teaching other solutions...I just don't get that?
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Old 05-25-2012, 05:16 AM
DonM DonM is offline
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Originally Posted by Joseph Hanna View Post
I tend to agree with you in a general sort of way. The more the merrier. I would however add a slight caveat to that in that all the residents and interns I have trained over the last 12 or so years have ALL come to me boasting a degree AND being an "expert" in Pro Tools. I've never (and I mean NEVER) had one of those guys (or gals) even remotely expert enough to handle even the simplest of tasks when suddenly the pressure of a feed was bearing down upon them. I have had several throw their hands up and walk away though.

My point being is that (as one who hires the audio engineers) it matters not that a potential employee knows Pro Tools and Logic. I'm glad he or she knows Logic but it ain't never gonna be of value to me or the facility. I'd much rather have someone who has mastered Pro Tools.

Like it or not that is, beyond any shadow of any doubt, the skill set they need to survive in the industry I'm in. That is an industry standard requirement and I know of NO production facility in Hollywood that strays from that standard. None.
Similar experience here - I have about 14 interns a year - and I find their workstation chops always less than they describe. I believe this is due to the condition that "Mastering Pro-Tools" implies a mastery of good audio production and post-production (including outboard signal routing and asset management). Typically I find that just about everyone confuses real usable workstation skills with memorizing the keyboard shortcuts in PT.

Our station uses Sequoia - just about nowhere can you get those instructions - so, having a good understanding of production and post, most skilled engineers will get along well.

Regarding a creative tool for artists - again - I don't care what my clients use - even if it is a Hardware recorder, I can work with the assets in PT or any tool I choose.

The only thing I do stray from ... is calling PT a standard. It is a highly installed product - and being functionally conversant in it is necessary - but as a tool, it's just a tool. I tell my students that a 'standard' can imply that PT is the basis for all other DAW's. To me the ultimate foundation is the analog tape based multi-track environment I'm sure you too experienced. With that as a standard, even PT demonstrates a tremendous reflection on that ancestry. So the 'standard' phraseology is my only caveat to the whole DAW tool thing. Many of my students hear so much noise about what Mic's, Near Fields, Consoles, DAC's, etc. they have to own in order to be a 'real' engineer. I'd rather they were real engineers regardless of what tools they own.

Great thread on this, typically these types of conversations are like muscle beach for me.

-D
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Old 05-25-2012, 06:16 AM
Ty Ford Ty Ford is offline
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Audio is a trade, a craft and an art; like masonry.

Bricks, stones, mortar, you're done, right?

I make audio and video for a living. I also review audio gear for a living.

I have used a lot of different DAW software and hardware. For over 10 years, I have used Pro Tools LE and am now at PT10 and Adobe Audition 5.5.
I haven't used Logic Pro.

The thing about Pro Tools (and probably all softwares) is that each person may use it somewhat differently. That point was made last year when a PT-using friend came to my studio to work on a project. We quickly realized that we use the same software differently. And as someone said, it's a tool. If you don't have a sense of what to do with it, the outcome will be limited.

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Ty Ford
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Old 05-25-2012, 07:19 AM
Joseph Hanna Joseph Hanna is offline
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The thing about Pro Tools (and probably all softwares) is that each person may use it somewhat differently.Ty Ford
Where I understand where you're coming from here Ty and understanding from one privately owned studio to another I'd tend to agree. However the exact opposite is true here in town. There simply must must be identical methods among audio staff. We are always, always under frightening deadlines and it's not uncommon to be 4 hours into a mix to get the scene scrubbed and we start over with the original deadline intact. Most medium to large production staffs are running (at least during busy seasons) 24/7. I simply must be able to come in after a night shift and find a session exactly as I'd expect. If an executive producer or worse a PC freaks over a mix and a Lone Ranger, night shift audio guy went rogue the night before and mixed willy nilly (his way) and I can't figure out what he's done and we can't push the fixes through quickly and quietly, someone will end up losing their job.

We long ago agreed on all preferences in Pro Tools. Because we work on franchised products that are branded from inception we agree on which plug-in will use per production. We use the exact same templates.*We automate the same way. Every last detail of production in Pro Tools is agreed upon before hand and we don't budge. It's also fairly common that other facilities have very similar templates and work flows as passing session back in forth, not only from bay to bay but facility to. facility is common. Even worse is passing OMFI/AFF files between two facilities and from Pro Tools to an Avid.
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Old 05-25-2012, 07:38 AM
Joseph Hanna Joseph Hanna is offline
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Regarding a creative tool for artists - again - I don't care what my clients use - even if it is a Hardware recorder, I can work with the assets in PT or any tool I choose.

The only thing I do stray from ... is calling PT a standard. It is a highly installed product - and being functionally conversant in it is necessary - but as a tool, it's just a tool.-D

Gosh I dunno Don. This is (at least in post audio world of Hollywood) where many actually make a great living, is just plain wrong. The time-lines and deadlines are deadly. The pressure is often unbearable. The competition, especially since it's a good paying gig, is fierce. No Head of Production....none....never...ever would hire a guy that says I know Pro Tools but I'm also good at stand alone 4-track recorders. The truth is in at least two facilities I work in they require a mandatory afternoon of test mixes on Pro Tools to even be considered for a job. Being good in Logic (which by the way I am Apple Certified in) or Sonar or Digital Performer means nothing...zip. Those are skills this industry is NOT interested in...period.

No offense man but it really seems like a lot of schools have their head in the sand when it comes to real world "jobs" in the production world. Post or music. A week spent here in Hollywood jumping from one production facility to another would reveal an ENDLESS parade of Pro Tools bays.

I've done the hiring here for the last 8 or so years. I LOVE Logic. I'd NEVER, EVER, in a million years hire a Logic guy. It doesn't makes sense and no matter how sharp an engineer he or she might be he or she would be swallowed whole in an afternoon of deadlines, PC's, screaming production managers and stressed out Avid editors.

Your position is not a realistic view of the industry I'm in.

Last edited by Joseph Hanna; 05-25-2012 at 02:25 PM.
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Old 05-25-2012, 11:37 PM
prsplayer12 prsplayer12 is offline
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I've done the hiring here for the last 8 or so years. I LOVE Logic. I'd NEVER, EVER, in a million years hire a Logic guy. It doesn't makes sense and no matter how sharp an engineer he or she might be he or she would be swallowed whole in an afternoon of deadlines, PC's, screaming production managers and stressed out Avid editors.

Your position is not a realistic view of the industry I'm in.
This is the reason I started this thread. Why do schools insist on teaching it if they know that it wont get the students far in the real world? Maybe trying to make better engineers by forcing them to get to know the system so that it can be applied to any software?
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Old 05-26-2012, 05:58 AM
Ty Ford Ty Ford is offline
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Where I understand where you're coming from here Ty and understanding from one privately owned studio to another I'd tend to agree. However the exact opposite is true here in town. There simply must must be identical methods among audio staff. We are always, always under frightening deadlines and it's not uncommon to be 4 hours into a mix to get the scene scrubbed and we start over with the original deadline intact. Most medium to large production staffs are running (at least during busy seasons) 24/7. I simply must be able to come in after a night shift and find a session exactly as I'd expect. If an executive producer or worse a PC freaks over a mix and a Lone Ranger, night shift audio guy went rogue the night before and mixed willy nilly (his way) and I can't figure out what he's done and we can't push the fixes through quickly and quietly, someone will end up losing their job.

We long ago agreed on all preferences in Pro Tools. Because we work on franchised products that are branded from inception we agree on which plug-in will use per production. We use the exact same templates.*We automate the same way. Every last detail of production in Pro Tools is agreed upon before hand and we don't budge. It's also fairly common that other facilities have very similar templates and work flows as passing session back in forth, not only from bay to bay but facility to. facility is common. Even worse is passing OMFI/AFF files between two facilities and from Pro Tools to an Avid.
Joe,

You do know that not all of Hollywood eats its young, right? I hope you escape from that sweat shop before you acquire health problems. Know this; There is a life with a good income without running around with your hair on fire. Leave that to the mouth breathing adrenaline junkies.

Surely, in facilities with multiple rooms, you need to have standards including having exactly the same setup in every room and fibre channel in the core. And working with other facilities requires a good workflow.

If you're saying everyone in you shop has to use it in exactly-the-same-way, that's still a fallacy because the operator remains the variable and the content itself as captured in production is also variable. So cookie cutter formulae can be counter productive.

Trust me, there is life outside of Hollywood. And, if Hollywood actually were the coolest place in the entire world to work, it would only be the coolest if you weren't jerked around as much as you say you are.

Don't forget to exhale!

Regards,

Ty Ford
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Old 05-26-2012, 12:35 PM
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This is the reason I started this thread. Why do schools insist on teaching it if they know that it wont get the students far in the real world? ?
This is a very very good question and the answer is there really is no good reason. While the basics of different DAWs is fundamentally similar , the work flow, look, and method of particular functions can be fairly different. It seems counter productive, efficiency wise to learn a DAW only to most likely have to learn Pro Tools in order to be employable. Because the fact remains that Pro Tools is being used in by far the vast majority of commercial Audio recoding and production facilities . So by that measure Pro Tools is indeed the " industry standard", and should be primary on the curriculum .
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Old 05-26-2012, 01:02 PM
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Of course, there's the presumption that the teachers teaching can adequately cover the material.

I know of one college at which the teachers know how to teach, but their knowledge of Pro Tools (or any other daw software) was barely existent.
I went there to give a few lectures and was surprised by what the teachers didn't know.

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Ty Ford
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