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  #16  
Old 07-31-2010, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
T

Next, I'd try the centered position I described above. Point the LDC directly at the guitar, right at the waist. Take the LDC and place it either right above or right below, turned sideways. Put the LDC in figure 8, of course. Don't change your preamp levels.

Hope this helps!
I have been following this thread and I have two quick questions in the above discription Did you mean to type " Point the SDC directly at the guitar" ? And you talk about a decoder plugin is this a requirement for MS recording ? Thanks, Kev
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Old 07-31-2010, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
I have been following this thread and I have two quick questions in the above discription Did you mean to type " Point the SDC directly at the guitar" ?
yes, oops, this is what I get for posting before I'm awake. I'll correct that in the post.

Quote:
And you talk about a decoder plugin is this a requirement for MS recording ? Thanks, Kev
What has to happen is that you have the mid mic centered in the mix. The side channel has to be replicated, with the replica 180 degrees out of phase (inverted polarity). Then you pan one of the side tracks hard left, the other hard right. It's actually a mathematical transformation Right = (Mid+Side), Left = (Mid-Side) that produces, in theory, the same effect as XY. Do a search on the web and you'll find papers with all the math, etc.

You can do this manually with most DAWs, but there are a number of plugins that just do this magically for you.

The cool thing about MS is that you can adjust the relative width of the stereo image simply by how much side you bring in. Further, within reasonable limits, if you collapse to mono, you truly get mono, with no phasing issues, because Left+Right = (Mid+Side) + (Mid-Side) = Mid. In mono, the side mic simply dissappears!
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  #18  
Old 07-31-2010, 03:00 PM
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Thanks I'll research it . Kev
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  #19  
Old 07-31-2010, 04:18 PM
Cue Zephyr Cue Zephyr is offline
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Thanks for the great post, Doug.

I had actually added compression and limiting... probably a bit too much of both!

Spaced pairs is a form of ORTF, right?

What about dropping the mics instead of raising them? I always use my MK-012 lowered, pointing up at the guitar when there are vocals involved. Raising it would give more bleed, but also more bass.

That picture shows exactly what my setup looks like. Except the mics are different (what mics are those anyway?).

I use a live decoder, Waves S1 Imager. it has an M-S Matrix processing bit in it, so I can directly monitor it, or put a goniometer on it (that analyzer you showed, Reaper has something like that).

I was a bit stupid, as I set the side mic (LDC) level to match the SDC when it was already rotated 90 degrees.

I've got two clean recordings of the MK-012 and the M179.
MK-012
M179
I think that's as close as it's gonna be with these two microphones!
I will get a second MK-012 at some point though. I was told it isn't necessary to buy a matched pair, because the MK-012s appear to be consistent enough. Heck, even the matched pairs aren't matched that well (somebody told me, he has a 'matched pair').
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  #20  
Old 07-31-2010, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cue Zephyr View Post

What about dropping the mics instead of raising them? I always use my MK-012 lowered, pointing up at the guitar when there are vocals involved. Raising it would give more bleed, but also more bass.

If you raise them as Doug suggested and point them down toward the guitar,
you should get less bleed than pointing them up toward toward your vocal.

Jim McCarthy
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  #21  
Old 07-31-2010, 06:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cue Zephyr View Post
I had actually added compression and limiting... probably a bit too much of both!
Yeah, you really need very little (some would say none) on fingerstyle stuff. With all the percussion, I'd tend to add enough to smooth it out a bit, but not some much that the waveforms are all clipped and slammed.

Quote:
Spaced pairs is a form of ORTF, right?
No, quite different. Here's a link to some good discussions of the various mic techniques:

http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/Mic...echniques.aspx

What I'm calling "space pairs", they're calling A-B Stereo.

Quote:
What about dropping the mics instead of raising them? I always use my MK-012 lowered, pointing up at the guitar when there are vocals involved.
Sure, try it. but also check out this video demo Fran did of how to minimize bleed when combining guitar and vocal using figure 8s:

http://vimeo.com/4083603

Quote:
That picture shows exactly what my setup looks like. Except the mics are different (what mics are those anyway?).
The side mic is an AKG 416, the top one is an Audio Technica 4051. Not mine, just a photo I grabbed from the web

Quote:
I was a bit stupid, as I set the side mic (LDC) level to match the SDC when it was already rotated 90 degrees.
I suspected that, a common mistake.
Quote:
I've got two clean recordings of the MK-012 and the M179.
Those sound very good, levels are good, nice and clean. Get that same sound in stereo and it'll be great. Even the mono of either one sounds fine.
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  #22  
Old 07-31-2010, 07:46 PM
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Overall, your clips sounds mighty fine to me! Thanks!

Regards,

SpruceTop
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  #23  
Old 07-31-2010, 08:14 PM
Fran Guidry Fran Guidry is offline
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Not to be pedantic, as if I could stop myself from pedantry, but the "sdc 12th fret ldc bridge mix to taste" is not AB stereo. In fact it's not stereo miking at all. Stereo doesn't mean "two channel" - rather it's from the Greek and means "solid" as in a solid sound field image. Stereo mic techniques attempt to capture an image of the sound field. When you start using mics and mic positions for color, miking from 6" or less, panning things around, we're not talking stereo miking.

In this case, any stereo (illusion of solid sound field) that results comes from the mixing and panning in post in spite of the mic technique, and is probably intended to sound bigger, wider, more dramatic, more intimate rather than realistic.

Historically, Alan Blumlein invented two channel stereo and slammed the door on Bell Labs where researchers were experimenting with multi-mic multi-channel recording and playback systems. Blumlein sought to create a recording and playback system that would cause dialogue to follow the physical location of actors in film, and succeeded.

His first stereo mic technique used figure 8s in X-Y (at right angles with coincident capsules, each 45 degrees to the source) and today we call that technique a Blumlein array. At the time, there were no high quality cardioid mics, the ribbon transducer was the most accurate technology available and the normal configuration resulted in a figure 8 mic.

Blumlein also worked out the math and then the practical development of the Mid-Side array. His first system used a figure 8 mid as well as side, with a transformer to perform the sum and difference processing. Any pattern can be used for the mid mic, each one giving a different mathematical equivalent for the result. With a cardioid mid mic the M-S array is equivalent to a cardioid X-Y. In the succeeding years other engineers developed the theory and practice of stereo miking, with techniques like A B (two matched omni mics separated by a distance), ORTF, DIN, Jecklin disk, etc.

http://www.microphone-data.com/pdfs/Stereo%20zoom.pdf

Before digital recording, M-S matrixing always carried a penalty of some kind. Transformers have less than perfect frequency response and distortion, resistive networks and amplifiers add noise. But with digital recording the matrixing is accomplished without these impacts, leading to the next step - de-matrixing conventional stereo in order to operate on the mid and side components, then re-matrixing to get a new stereo image. This started off as a super top secret mastering trick, but now is available from your nearest free plugin download site.

Did I mention that the technical side of recording is endlessly fascinating?

Fran
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  #24  
Old 07-31-2010, 09:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fran Guidry View Post
Not to be pedantic, as if I could stop myself from pedantry, but the "sdc 12th fret ldc bridge mix to taste" is not AB stereo.
Yeah, probably we should have some better name for that technique on the guitar. "Spaced pairs" seems to me to capture it without implying a correct stereo field, and we usually know that at least possibly includes the bridge/12th fret setup, tho there are other "spaced" arrangements. Maybe it should just be called "bridge/12th fret" when used on the guitar.

Of course, just to reinforce your point about close miking, with the type of close miking most fingerstyle players use these days, it's really just different variations of 2 mics that are creating the illusion of stereo by picking up different parts of the guitar. And then there are people who create "stereo" with a mic and a pickup... It's still useful to look at all the various techniques and use them as starting points, but it also helps to understand the intended use, and why sometimes they don't work all that well for close miking.
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  #25  
Old 08-01-2010, 05:27 PM
Cue Zephyr Cue Zephyr is offline
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Fran and Doug,

Thank you for your post.
I'm not sure if 'proper' stereo miking would be that great for this kind of playing, but it might. I can't do that with these unmatched mics though. First I probably want to pick up another 012 and then later maybe an M179 so I can do both XY/ORTF and blumlein. But that's still a long way away.

Also wanted to say that I had a massive fail ttoday, recording guitar and vocals and now I can't flick Melodyne onto the vocals to fix them... AH I hate myself now.
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  #26  
Old 08-02-2010, 07:37 AM
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Yes, thanks to all once again for taking the time to illuminate the strange and complex world of recording. Thanks, Kev.
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  #27  
Old 08-02-2010, 07:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cue Zephyr View Post

Also wanted to say that I had a massive fail ttoday, recording guitar and vocals and now I can't flick Melodyne onto the vocals to fix them... AH I hate myself now.
Well you could get wild and experimental and just max out the gtr & vocal with melodyne give em both the "Sher" effect see what it sounds like
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  #28  
Old 08-02-2010, 09:18 AM
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Indeed splitting hairs. It is pretty archaic to define and limit the use of the word "stereo" to the early Greeks use of the word . If I remember correctly microphones and recording came a couple of years later. Updating commonly understood usage of a word every few hundred years is helpful.

However if you prefer use the word "stereophonic". Pulled this definition off the internet:
"ster·e·o·phon·ic
–adjective
pertaining to a system of sound recording or reproduction using two or more separate channels to produce a more realistic effect by capturing the spatial dimensions of a performance (the location of performers as well as their acoustic surroundings), used esp. with high-fidelity recordings and reproduction systems ( opposed to monophonic)"
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  #29  
Old 08-02-2010, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cue Zephyr View Post
Fran and Doug,

Thank you for your post.
I'm not sure if 'proper' stereo miking would be that great for this kind of playing, but it might.
The way Fran's defining stereo, you can pretty much only do it from a distance. You have to get far enough back that the mics are picking up the guitar as a point source instead of each mic picking up a different part of the guitar. Classical guys often do this, and the mics can be far, far away, across the room. You get that sound of hearing a concert from the back of the room that you might hear on old Segovia records. I think all Fran was trying to point out was that X/Y, ORTF, etc, weren't invented for close micing, so what we get when we use these on guitar is a little different than what was originally intended.

Really, with contemporary fingerstyle recording techniques, what matters is to get a good sound, no matter how you do it. It's not "real" because no one listens from 1 foot away, and no one's ears spread from the 12th fret to the bridge, even if they did get that close, but it does produce the expected sound, and if it sounds good, it is!

You're getting a good sound with the new mic, keep at it! (I'd stay away from Melodyne, cool as it is :-), unless you double track and have total isolation.)
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  #30  
Old 08-02-2010, 12:38 PM
Cue Zephyr Cue Zephyr is offline
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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Well you could get wild and experimental and just max out the gtr & vocal with melodyne give em both the "Sher" effect see what it sounds like
That's the thing, the guitar is loud enough to confuse Melodyne.
The guitar is off the beat and the voice is off pitch.
No, it wasn't me, so I can't re-do it (at least now).

And Doug, you have a good point. A 'true' sound is excellent for classical guitar, but for this contemporary fingerstyle everything works. Like, Antoine Dufour's tone is from one or two mics and a pick-up that has a considerable influence on the sound. Andy McKee's recording tone is still my favorite though.
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