Need help figuring out chord from "The Boxer"

[spock]

Listening to Live Rhymin' by Paul Simon tonight and trying to figure out what Paul is doing at 1:45 and 3:17 right at the conclusion of the chorus and leading into the next verse. A dissonant sounding chord that I can't seem to pin down? Any ideas?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4iqWv4vlwo

Thanks

[Glennwillow]

Hi spock!

I am pretty sure that he is playing a C chord with an added 9th -- that is a C chord with an added D note played on the 2nd string, 3rd fret. In my cover of this song at 1:19 you can see me playing the same chord.



I am playing this song with capo on the first fret where Paul Simon originally played this, but on your link he is playing the song with the capo on the 3rd fret. If you capo there and play the Cadd9 chord, I think you'll find it matches the voicing he is getting.

I hope this is helpful.

- Glenn

[rick-slo]

Standard tuning capo on third fret gives

Eb9

x-6-5-6-6-x referenced from nut (or x-3-2-3-3-x referenced from capo)

Listen for one note at a time and then find fingering choices for the combo of notes.

[Glennwillow]

From Paul Simon's website, here are the chords and lyrics: http://www.paul-simon.info/PHP/shows...songnummer=173

And from Paul Simon's website, here is the tab: http://www.paul-simon.info/PHP/shows...songnummer=174

Neither one of these files, as far as I can tell with a quick scan, explains what the chord in question is.

I have two Paul Simon songbooks with The Boxer song included in both. I have The Paul Simon Songbook and The Definitive Paul Simon Songbook. Neither transcription is clear about what that chord is, but in the Definitive version, they state that the opening chord is an Add9 chord. So to me that sounds the most like the way Paul Simon played it on his Bridge Over Troubled Water album.

Here is the original from the album and at 1:16 you hear the unusual chord you're asking about.
This sounds like an Add9 chord to me, not a 9th chord.

However on this video at about 1:49 it actually sounds like the band is actually playing a 9th chord as Derek mentioned.


I suppose you can use Paul Simon's chords and then see what chord you like at the point in the song that is in question.

- Glenn

[rick-slo]

Yeah, obviously he varies the key in different performances. In the OP's example the chord was Eb9. The note pitches were pretty plain.
Just locate them and the figure out the chord fingering. Of course figuring out the notes played is more important than naming the chord.

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Yeah, obviously he varies the key in different performances. In the OP's example the chord was Eb9. The note pitches were pretty plain.
Just locate them and the figure out the chord fingering. Of course figuring out the notes played is more important than naming the chord.

In the video referenced, Paul Simon is playing the song as if it were in the key of C but with the capo on the 3rd fret. So that is really the key of Eb. If he plays a Cadd9 on capo 3, that is really EbAdd9.

A person could certainly play a C9 in place of a CAdd9 (with the capo on the 3rd fret, making E9 in lieu of Eadd9) and the sound would only be slightly different.

I don't think you are I are talking about significant differences here.

- Glenn

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

In the video referenced, Paul Simon is playing the song as if it were in the key of C but with the capo on the 3rd fret. So that is really the key of Eb. If he plays a Cadd9 on capo 3, that is really EbAdd9.

It is the 1, 3, 7, 9 of the chord (Eb9)

[stanron]

`x 3 2 3 3 x

and

x 3 2 3 3 3

are both standard shapes for C9

the notes being C E Bb D G


x-6-5-6-6-x

is Eb G Db F which, as you say, is Eb9

The numbers don't seem to match up.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by stanron

`x 3 2 3 3 x
and x 3 2 3 3 3 are both standard shapes for C9
the notes being C E Bb D G

x-6-5-6-6-x is Eb G Db F which, as you say, is Eb9

The numbers don't seem to match up.

Referenced the fret numbers either from the nut or from the capo (as I posted earlier).

[Pitar]

Basically, with the capo on 3 he's playing an alternating C shape chord but adds the Db on the 3rd string and adjusts his pattern to make it the dominant note for the turn-around.

[JonPR]

The other thing that's happening first time (in the version the OP linked 1:45) is there is an open 6th string bass note: 0-3-2-3-3-(0) from the capo, a C9/E shape. Second time (3:17) you don't hear that E.
The audio is also flat of concert, so you'd need to tune down a little to play along.

In the original studio version the key is B major (concert), not Eb major. I.e., probably C tuned down a half-step The 7th on the chord is not as obvious, but is still there. Oddly, I can't hear it myself, but Transcribe software shows it clearly.

In the live version Glennwillow posted (in Db concert!), it's really clear as a full 9th chord (1:49 and 3:22).

It sounds really weird anyway, IMO, to turn the tonic chord into a dominant as a turnaround. (The "blues" effect doesn't seem to belong.) But it's obviously deliberate, and Simon is a clever guy, so what do I know...

Two more references:

1:30 - you see him play a Cadd9 shape, but you clearly hear a full C9, obviously played on the backing guitar (both D and Bb, and he clearly isn't playing both himself).
2:50 - he actually hums that Bb! while playing either a Cadd9 or C7, hard to tell (looks more like the latter this time, which would fit with what he's singing).

Then again, in this version he doesn't bother. Just a plain C chord the whole way. 1:04-1:09 and 3:16-3:20:

[DavidE]

This has been an interesting discussion. I play the Live in Central Park version which adds a new verse where the horn solo used to be. The Lie Lie Lie part does not line up with the chart on Paul's website (set forth below). According to the chart, in the second line the Am changes to a G, but in the performance that G is replaced by an Em (which I actually prefer and use). In the third line of the chart, the progression goes from F to G to C, but in this performance, it goes G - G7 - C. I prefer the original F-G-C, so I use that.

In other words, Paul plays it however he wants and changes it up often enough.



|Am
Lie-la-lie,

|G | |Am |
Lie-la-lie la lie-la-lie lie-la-lie,

|F |G |C | | |
Lie-la-lie la la la la, Lie la la la la lie.

[spock]

Thanks all - I do genuinely appreciate it.