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  #46  
Old 01-16-2021, 07:30 PM
loco gringo loco gringo is offline
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When you figure out how to grow BRW in New Hampshire, let us know.
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  #47  
Old 01-16-2021, 07:49 PM
jdrnd jdrnd is offline
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Originally Posted by hubcapsc View Post
while thinking about this thread I saw this:

https://www.fws.gov/fieldnotes/regmap.cfm?arskey=36795

-Mike
that is a big ...'wow'
interesting article.
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  #48  
Old 01-16-2021, 07:49 PM
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I do wonder if Brazilian Rosewood can be (or is currently being) farmed sustainability to make guitars. I don’t know enough about how fast it grows to know how long it would take to grow a tree suitably large for a Quartersawn guitar back.
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  #49  
Old 01-16-2021, 07:51 PM
jdrnd jdrnd is offline
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Originally Posted by loco gringo View Post
When you figure out how to grow BRW in New Hampshire, let us know.
.......magic
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  #50  
Old 01-16-2021, 10:22 PM
Audie Audie is offline
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Originally Posted by jdrnd View Post
So If I plant a Brazilian rosewood tree (Dalbergia nigra) in my backyard or greenhouse, can my son legally use the wood from this tree to make guitars when the tree matures 20 years from now. How do I prove it was not imported from Brazil? Is the tree protected from being cut down even in my backyard in the USA?
No, because the tree will still be a glorified twig in twenty years. A harvestable Brazzy tree averages 70 to 100 years of age, which is still very young. They grow slower than an oak, and take even longer to get their mature girth. A mature brazzy tree was considered to be 150 yrs of age. I guess now we can be excited to see one half that age, and sad enough someone will want to cut it down.

Last edited by Teleplucker; 01-18-2021 at 10:32 AM. Reason: veiled profanity
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  #51  
Old 01-16-2021, 11:22 PM
Ruby Ruby is offline
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Originally Posted by 6L6 View Post
Happy to say that my favorite non-hog back and sides wood is EIR.



I've owned numerous Braz Martins and they are all gone. My EIR ones remain.


If you don’t mind sharing, I’d be very interested to hear what models the BRWs were and what models the EIRs are?
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  #52  
Old 01-17-2021, 09:05 AM
jdrnd jdrnd is offline
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Brazilian Rosewood trees grow at about 1.2 cm a year in width, and perhaps 2 to 3 feet per year in height. Probably would take 70 to 75 years to grow a tree 3 feet in width. They can probably tolerate temperatures as low as 30°F so a Brazilian Rosewood forest in New England wouldn’t work. However they might be able to grow in Florida. I did found this website https://treeplantation.com/rosewood.html suggesting that there may be people looking to set up rosewood plantations in Florida.

As for the guy that was arrested for trying to transport BR seeds to Fiji to start a plantation. His seeds were confiscated and sent to a museum. The end destination of the confiscated seeds was that some of the trees were going to be planted and some were going to be studied. In fact he was not depleting the supply of BR, he was on a project to increase the supply. The US government did a disservice to Brazilian Rosewood. There will be less trees in the future due to their action. A sustainable and profitable plantation(s) in Fiji would be more likely to continue the existence of this plant, than planting a few for show and growing the plants in a lab. I wonder if this guy realized that the profits would be harvested by his grandkids?
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  #53  
Old 01-17-2021, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 6L6 View Post
Happy to say that my favorite non-hog back and sides wood is EIR.

I've owned numerous Braz Martins and they are all gone. My EIR ones remain.
I have a similar experience with new Brazilian RW guitars. I played some vintage ones which were great, but maybe the age had something to do with it.
I more a Mahogany guy anyway.
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  #54  
Old 01-17-2021, 03:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan Carruth View Post
This highlights our main problem; we don't exist. Guitar makers are not much more than a small rounding error in the American economy, so when it's time to write regs they don't pay any attention to us. Most of us don't have extensive legal staffing, and we tend not to sleep with the Congressional Record next to our beds for light night time reading. It's easy to spot the things we make at the border, though, and it's widely known that we use endangered species. so....
I disagree - solo luthiers, and boutique shops, are no more than a rounding error perhaps. But if you consider the major factories - Martin, Gibson, Taylor, etc - they actually account for enough wood imports to be considered rather carefully. But as with any situation, they usually need to see where the problems are, and make some modifications. Like now, its changed so you can take a personal instrument with you out of the country, and return with it. But what we can’t regulate is what other countries, or their customs and inspections services, are going to do.

The OPs question is hopefully helping further raise awareness about our use, mis-use, over-use, and ab-use of natural resources. We’ve ignored the real costs of many of these materials we love, assuming that if we offer more money, then “magically”, more will be found or become available. We don’t seem to really understand that extinction is pretty permanent, and whatever the reason or cause, when you cut down the last tree, whether its to subsistence farm or to try and build a bespoke musical instrument, then that material is gone. And many resources and environments we’d like to preserve - with a thought to generations coming after us - are under serious attack, with too many thinking only of their own pocketbook and no thought of the planet beyond their minuscule lifespan.

We - this generation - don’t have any options for our use. But if we think that Braz RW is important to build great instruments in the future, then we need to help preserve those trees trying to grow now, preserve the environments they need to be able to grow, and encourage planting more, knowing that we are doing it not for ourselves, or even for our children, and maybe not theirs, but maybe for generations further than that. And in the meantime, we should build instruments that can and will be repaired and rebuilt and passed along to players who come after us -

But for now - there is good quality Braz RW available, and luthiers building with it. Its just not cheap, and that’s OK, ‘cause we’ve proven there are a lot of really good and inexpensive alternatives easily available.
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  #55  
Old 01-17-2021, 04:37 PM
tommieboy tommieboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdrnd View Post
..... The US government did a disservice to Brazilian Rosewood....
Good intentions aside, transplanting flora, fauna, etc. from one ecosystem into another ecosystem many times has destroyed the other ecosystem.

Tommy
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  #56  
Old 01-17-2021, 06:47 PM
whvick whvick is offline
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Default Why Can't We Get Some New Good Quality Brazilian Rosewood?

For what it is worth, I am one of the many who cannot tell BRW from EIR and probably ovangkol would trick me. Heck, carbon fiber sounds pretty good also.
From what some have said before , should I assume that the value is more in the rarity of these endangered wood? And is it possible that the great sound is more from the age of the guitar than the difference in woods?
Also is there any risk to the supply of EIR?
Just asking
Thanks
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  #57  
Old 01-18-2021, 06:10 AM
jdrnd jdrnd is offline
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Originally Posted by tommieboy View Post
Good intentions aside, transplanting flora, fauna, etc. from one ecosystem into another ecosystem many times has destroyed the other ecosystem.

Tommy
Given its rate of growth (and value to humans). It would be unlikely to replace the fauna on Fiji island.
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  #58  
Old 01-18-2021, 06:32 AM
Robin, Wales Robin, Wales is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whvick View Post
For what it is worth, I am one of the many who cannot tell BRW from EIR and probably ovangkol would trick me. Heck, carbon fiber sounds pretty good also.
From what some have said before , should I assume that the value is more in the rarity of these endangered wood? And is it possible that the great sound is more from the age of the guitar than the difference in woods?
Also is there any risk to the supply of EIR?
Just asking
Thanks
Whvick
Yes. Also, old guitars tend to end up in the hands of great players. So, when you hear something and go "Wow! I love the sound of that!" it is going to be the player that's working that guitar you are really hearing, not the fact it was made from BRW. An EIR guitar of the same age would be indistinguishable beyond the fact that no two guitars sound the same anyway! And why spend $5000 or more having a guitar made to replicate a $35 guitar from the 1930s, which would have felt at that time like spending less that $600 at todays wages/prices? Better to look out for the new to market little gems that are now on sale for that under $500 mark that will be the "vintage" guitars of the future - because they are around with better built quality and better playability than a 1930s guitar. And with no BRW in sight!
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  #59  
Old 01-18-2021, 06:33 AM
Ruby Ruby is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hubcapsc View Post
while thinking about this thread I saw this:

https://www.fws.gov/fieldnotes/regmap.cfm?arskey=36795

-Mike
What the heck? Maybe I'm just ignorant but why the heck would BRW seeds be illegal? As a layperson, it seems like not allowing people to carry BRW seeds for planting defeats the conservation purpose.
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  #60  
Old 01-18-2021, 06:53 AM
The Bard Rocks The Bard Rocks is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tommieboy View Post
Good intentions aside, transplanting flora, fauna, etc. from one ecosystem into another ecosystem many times has destroyed the other ecosystem.

Tommy
I have read that a BRW trees needs to grow in the presence of other trees, that it will not respond in a plantation situation.
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