Will a re-fret improve action??

[BigToeify]

I have a 1979 Yamaha. The action is not that great anymore. Not terrible but id like it to be better. I've read about neck reset conversion to bolt on for these 70's Yamaha's. My luthier believes that I can get back very nice action with a re-fret without doing a neck re-set. He mentioned when removing the frets he will loosen the truss rod, re-fret and re-engage the truss rod again, recut a new nut and saddle as well. Is this the typical process? I'm no repair expert. I do trust him with doing the re-fret but I was curious if this is the standard way of doing a re-fret.
Also can a re-fret improve the action to a point where a neck reset is probably not necessary? I know its hard to answer without seeing the guitar. Just curious to anyone who does repairs.
I'll also say that I know this guitar financially is not worth any of these repairs but it's not about money.
Thanks!

[mirwa]

Its all about the lay of the frets in relationship to the bridge and saddle, if a board can be sanded to accomodate this then it is perfectly fine and normal.

When necks get really bad we usually do the remove and refit option.

Steve

[nacluth]

Compression refretting is a thing. Use a slightly bigger fretwire usually and the little difference of every fret helps to reverse the bow of the neck. I can’t say I’ve ever done it when a viable truss rod is still in the neck. Typically a truss rod will impart more force (ie back bow) than compression fretting, but I guess it’s possible. I would like to hear what other repairmen have to say.

I guess it depends on the guitar, but one solution is not necessarily that much easier than the other. Is he going to do the reset if the refret doesn’t work?

[BigToeify]

Originally Posted by nacluth

Compression refretting is a thing. Use a slightly bigger fretwire usually and the little difference of every fret helps to reverse the bow of the neck. I can’t say I’ve ever done it when a viable truss rod is still in the neck. Typically a truss rod will impart more force (ie back bow) than compression fretting, but I guess it’s possible. I would like to hear what other repairmen have to say.

I guess it depends on the guitar, but one solution is not necessarily that much easier than the other. Is he going to do the reset if the refret doesn’t work?

He did not say he would do a reset if the re-fret doesn't work. I asked him if he thought a reset was necessary in my case. He said he thought a re-fret would it "play like a new guitar again". He remarked he didn't like the idea of sawing off a neck unless it was absolutely necessary. I personally just don't know how much of an improvement the re-fret will make. How much I will notice. I have to believe a lot. He said that the frets were down to nubs due to multiple fret dressings over the course of years of set ups etc.

[BigToeify]

Originally Posted by nacluth

Compression refretting is a thing. Use a slightly bigger fretwire usually and the little difference of every fret helps to reverse the bow of the neck. I can’t say I’ve ever done it when a viable truss rod is still in the neck. Typically a truss rod will impart more force (ie back bow) than compression fretting, but I guess it’s possible. I would like to hear what other repairmen have to say.

I guess it depends on the guitar, but one solution is not necessarily that much easier than the other. Is he going to do the reset if the refret doesn’t work?

What exactly is compression refretting vs standard re-fret?

[charles Tauber]

A truss rod adjustment addresses the curvature of the neck, as does compression fretting. A neck reset isn’t about neck curvature. It’s about deformation of the body of the guitar and the effect it has on string height.

A neck reset changes the angle the neck makes with the body. In doing so, the string height is reduced over the fingerboard.

If, instead of changing the angle of the entire neck relative to the body, one changes the curvature of the neck so that the nut end of the neck is lowered relative to the plane of the strings, the strings will be lower towards the nut but will be excessively high further up the neck, particularly in the area of the fingerboard over the top. Effectively it changes the angle of part of the neck but not all of it. If you don’t play at the higher frets that might work for you.

[BigToeify]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

A truss rod adjustment addresses the curvature of the neck, as does compression fretting. A neck reset isn’t about neck curvature. It’s about deformation of the body of the guitar and the effect it has on string height.

A neck reset changes the angle the neck makes with the body. In doing so, the string height is reduced over the fingerboard.

If, instead of changing the angle of the entire neck relative to the body, one changes the curvature of the neck so that the nut end of the neck is lowered relative to the plane of the strings, the strings will be lower towards the nut but will be excessively high further up the neck, particularly in the area of the fingerboard over the top. Effectively it changes the angle of part of the neck but not all of it. If you don’t play at the higher frets that might work for you.

I typically dont play past the 10th fret. I also don't want a quick fix either if a re-fret only partially fixes the problem. So then what is the best course of action to fix the problem and not just address symptoms.

[nacluth]

It’s a little hard to read between the lines, but if the action isn’t that bad and you have some play in your truss rod and your frets are worn, then the standard refret might be the way to go. On re-reading your post, it seems like he’s saying a reset is not necessary. I originally read that he would refret in place of a reset. That’s why I brought up a compression refret. However, it sounds like he just wants to replace worn frets.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by BigToeify

So then what is the best course of action to fix the problem and not just address symptoms.

Difficult to say without seeing it. You've taken it to a luthier for an evaluation. We can assume that the luthier is competent and his advice sound.

If you wish, you could take a few measurements and determine for yourself whether or not a neck reset is required. A neck reset is all about geometry and you can determine that geometry with a few basic measurements.

[Peegoo]

"What exactly is compression refretting vs. standard re-fret?"

Compression fretting is something we do when (1) a guitar has no adjustable or operable truss rod and we need to induce a bit of backward bow in the neck, or (2) the truss rod alone cannot pull enough backward bow into the neck to overcome string tension and achieve optimal neck relief for easy play and proper intonation.

Compression fretting involves using fret wire that has tangs substantially thicker than the slots in the fingerboard. When pressed in, the tangs act like little wedges that effectively but microscopically lengthen the fingerboard. This pressure causes the neck to take on a permanently-set backward bow.

If too much bow (or asymmetrical bow) is induced in the neck, it can be reduced by strategically pressing thinner-tang frets in certain places on the fingerboard.

[BigToeify]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Difficult to say without seeing it. You've taken it to a luthier for an evaluation. We can assume that the luthier is competent and his advice sound.

If you wish, you could take a few measurements and determine for yourself whether or not a neck reset is required. A neck reset is all about geometry and you can determine that geometry with a few basic measurements.

What measurements can I do to check? Thank you.

[Edgar Poe]

If money is not an issue, have the neck reset, and dress the frets if that can save a refret job.

Ed

[BigToeify]

Originally Posted by Edgar Poe

If money is not an issue, have the neck reset, and dress the frets if that can save a refret job.

Ed

Money is not an issue. But that doesn't mean it's flowing either. I'd rather not do a repair that I don't have to but I will if it is needed. This past week I had new tuners put on my guitar and I asked him to do any adjustments that might help the action. When I picked up the guitar he said he had to crown the frets because they were so worn. To avoid the sitar effect. Does that seem like a re-fret is necessary even if I decide to have the neck reset?

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by BigToeify

What measurements can I do to check? Thank you.

1. Ensure that the amount of neck relief is not excessive (typically .010" or less).

2. Measure the vertical distance from the top of the 12th fret the bottom of the two E strings.

3. Measure the vertical distance from the outside surface of the guitar top to the bottom of the D string at the bridge.

4. Measure the thickness of the bridge at the two E strings - it might be thinner at the treble E string.

5. Measure the amount that the saddle projects from the top of the bridge at both E strings.

6. Measure the height of the frets from the surface of the fingerboard to the top of the crown - a single measurement is sufficient if the frets are of the same height.

7. Unless the string height at the nut is hugely excessive, it won't come into play much, but you can measure either the distance from the top of the first fret to the bottom of the string, or measure the vertical height from the top surface of the fingerboard the bottom of the string at the nut. (Unless they vary widely from one string to the next, a single dimension is sufficient.)

Those dimensions will provide a detailed account of the geometry of the guitar as it relates to string heights/neck angles.


In answer to your other question, if he recommended replacing the frets, the work to level and crown the existing ones seems redundant/unnecessary. I'd have expected he would have contacted you and said that your frets need replacing, but if you prefer not to replace them, then he can crown the existing ones.

Whether or not new frets are required after a neck reset depends, in part, on the condition of the frets prior to the neck reset. For example, if they were in new condition prior to the neck reset, they wouldn't need replacement, just reinstallation, depending upon what work, exactly, he does as part of the neck reset. In some cases, only one or two frets need to be removed during the neck reset, requiring only one or two need to be reinstalled.

[BigToeify]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

1. Ensure that the amount of neck relief is not excessive (typically .010" or less).

2. Measure the vertical distance from the top of the 12th fret the bottom of the two E strings.

3. Measure the vertical distance from the outside surface of the guitar top to the bottom of the D string at the bridge.

4. Measure the thickness of the bridge at the two E strings - it might be thinner at the treble E string.

5. Measure the amount that the saddle projects from the top of the bridge at both E strings.

6. Measure the height of the frets from the surface of the fingerboard to the top of the crown - a single measurement is sufficient if the frets are of the same height.

7. Unless the string height at the nut is hugely excessive, it won't come into play much, but you can measure either the distance from the top of the first fret to the bottom of the string, or measure the vertical height from the top surface of the fingerboard the bottom of the string at the nut. (Unless they vary widely from one string to the next, a single dimension is sufficient.)

Those dimensions will provide a detailed account of the geometry of the guitar as it relates to string heights/neck angles.


In answer to your other question, if he recommended replacing the frets, the work to level and crown the existing ones seems redundant/unnecessary. I'd have expected he would have contacted you and said that your frets need replacing, but if you prefer not to replace them, then he can crown the existing ones.

Whether or not new frets are required after a neck reset depends, in part, on the condition of the frets prior to the neck reset. For example, if they were in new condition prior to the neck reset, they wouldn't need replacement, just reinstallation, depending upon what work, exactly, he does as part of the neck reset. In some cases, only one or two frets need to be removed during the neck reset, requiring only one or two need to be reinstalled.

From what my luthier said the frets are like nubs. Forty years of playing. He told me they needed replacing. I’m trying to ascertain whether a refret will get me the action I want or will only a neck reset get me that.