Locking tuners for Rainsong - first impressions

[mbroz]

Well, I decided to put some new tuners on my Rainsong. This is not a critical topic for me or my guitar, but since others have discussed some of the aspects of changing tuners, I decided to add post my reasons and first impressions. Sorry for how long this is.

Reason for new tuners:
- I had some difficulty getting a precise tune with the original tuners. It wasn't terrible or anything, but not as good as I was hoping. I know it was just me and I would have gotten used to it (it's not rocket science after all), but they seemed to have a lot of "slack" in them for high quality tuners. I realize this experience can be caused by the strings sticking in the nut or or the bridge, but both are tusq and I have done the graphite pencil trick for the bridge with no improvement. For comparisons, I did not have this same experience on my Emerald X7 or my Martin D15.

Things that affected my decisions:
- My Rainsong is the LE2 which has a matte black neck and headstock, but the tuners are gloss black. Yes, this is silly and probably more of a justification than a "reason", but it was part of my decision process when choosing new tuners
- I wanted to look at the 21:1 ratio tuners to see if that would help me dial in the tuning easier
- I was curious about the "value proposition" of locking tuners (specifically, ease of changing strings). This is especially helpful when combined with the high ratio...where high ratio tuners means more "turns" when changing strings, but since locking tuners only require 1/4 to 1 full turn, it counters the downside of high ratio tuners
- Since my Rainsong already had Gotoh tuners, I didn't look very hard at other options so I could swap them easily and then go back to the stock tuners if I don't like the new ones

Decision:
- I went with Gotoh 1:21 matte black locking tuners with small plastic buttons: SGV510Z-B07 MGT L3+R3 from Guitar Hey online suppliers

Impressions:
- Guitar Hey has pretty much every option from Gotoh (and I presume other manufacturers), so that is great (get what you want) and bad (I spent way more time looking at options than I ever thought I would LOL). Also, processing and shipping were great.
- these are not cheap (~$150 I think)...so the value proposition is a bit suspect...granted the guitar cost 20x that, so I don't think it's terribly out of line
- the tuners arrived well packaged and seem very high quality; they look great and (to me) look great on the guitar
- I weighed the new vs old (including the screw and "nut" and the new locking tuners are lighter than the originals (many people seem concerned about weight of locking tuners): old was 1.4oz, new are 1.2oz. I believe this is because the old buttons were metal and larger. Still, I was surprised the new ones weren't heavier.
- the new tuners were a drop in replacement; super easy to install and I can swap them back out if I'm not happy with them
- note: the "nut" on the original tuners were close to coming loose (barely more than finger tight). The screws were tight. I'm not sure why the nuts were almost loose, but it's something I will check occasionally in the future.
- tuning up was definitely more precise than my original tuners
- note for now I just re-used the previous strings because they were fairly new, so we'll see how it goes with brand new strings next time I change them out

To the question of how much "turn" to get on these locking tuners:
This seems to be the topic of most disagreement online. I did my best to find various opinions, instructions, etc. Gotoh themselves are very thin on instructions for these particular tuners for some reason so I spent some time looking at opinions, videos, AGF articles, etc. Here is what I did:
- instructions say to pull the string tight, screw the locking mechanism down, and then turn the button to tune the guitar
- some folks seem to have a problem with breaking strings using locking tuners and this seems related to tuners with burrs on tuners (hole edges or locking pin), or overtightening the locking pin on wound strings
- people like to disagree with how much of a turn you should get: ranging from 1/4 turn (meaning the string comes out of the hole at 90 degrees and goes straight to the nut; this causing all the stress to be on the locking pin and edge of the tuner hole,; up to recommendations for a full turn or more (to share the stress load across the curve of the tuner). Gotoh instrucitons say never more than 1 full turn
- I decided to try to get between a 1/2 to 3/4 turn as a compromise
- my first string was the low E and I think I did not tighten the locker enough and I didn't get enough slack, so when I tuned it, all the stress was on the edge of the hole and the "windings" on the string separated at the edge of the tuner string hole (see photo). I expect that string to break sometime soon, but I'll play it till it breaks :-)...surprisingly, it seems to be staying in tune so far.
- to get my desired wrap, set the tuner so the hole points at the nut slot for that string, inserti the string thru the tuner, put one finger under the string at the first fret and pull the string taught and tighten the locker (note this is very different than the instructions); this would give me about a half turn (obviously, a little more is needed for the thicker strings, a little less for the thin strings)...I expect this process to take me a few string changes to get it where I like it
- my first attempt was OK...the low E and B did not get as much wrap as I wanted; with the already mentioned deforming of the low E string wrappings
- it might also be a little different with new (unstretched) strings...I'll provide an update after the next string change

Quick photo explanations (left to right, top to bottom):
1. original tuners, front of headstock
2. new tuners, front of headstock
3. low E string deformed at edge of new tuner peg hole (possibly due to not enough slack/turns before coming up to tune)
4. original tuners, back of headstock
5. new tuners, back of headstock
6. side view with 1 new tuner installed to compare peg height on front of headstock, and tuner size on back of headstock

[Earl49]

A good write-up of your investigation and results, Mbroz. Glad you are happy. I had a buddy who used Sperzel locking tuners on his Taylor 314, but I could never figure out just why, except as a preference.

No disrespect intended, but personally I see locking tuners as a "solution in search of a problem" and have never used them. Like David Wilcox, I use several alternate tunings, and based on his recommendation put extra wraps on the tuning posts (three on the E, four on the A, and 6+ on the other strings). That lets me bend around a larger capstan radius and get less work-hardening of the metal, therefore less string breakage -- almost zero, except after multiple re-tunings. Locking tuners seem impractical for changing tunings.

[mbroz]

Thanks Earl49. No offense taken. I agree locking tuners aren't a huge value on acoustic guitars in particular where you aren't using a whammy bar, etc. Mostly, I just wanted to try them out because I wanted to go with the higher ratio. I can see how it's possible re-tuning a lot for alternative tunings might very well create more broken strings with locking tuners vs regular tuners depending on how many wraps you put on of course. Maybe somebody here will have some experience with that situation and will chime in. I don't use alternate tunings much since I'm still figuring out standard tuning LOL, but I've certainly seen a number of folk singers in live shows who change their tuning with almost every song :-). Anyway, the feedback is appreciated.

[steelvibe]

I tried locking tuners on my OF660 but in the end went back to non-locking. I thought that the strings would maintain better when the neck was disassembled, but it was a very minor improvement. I was frustrated with them more than the minor benefit, so I sold them here on AGF. If I didn't crank the back screw tight enough, the string would slip through the capstan while tuning. Ever tried threading a very short string through a capstan so you don't waste a brand new set?

[OnTheFidele]

Thanks for the writeup, @mbroz! Just got locking tuners in my CO-OM1100N2.

Also, thanks for mentioning Guitar Hey. They actually have the Magnum Locks with no wheel in the back, which most other carriers don't have. I installed the ones with the wheel that you did, but good to know that we have more options.

I too, am busy learning standard tuning so I'm going to be sticking with EADGBE for the forseeable future. And I just plain wanted to try them out.

The one negative is that I just got a Sagework guitar support, which means I'm going to have to wait until a string change to install it, rather than just loosen up the strings if I had a standard set of tuners.

Also, @steelvibe, the Magnum Locks with no wheel might not have that issue. I spoke with a luthier today and he shared that he loves those in particular for his detachable neck guitars. The tuners lock themselves at the right pressure without the need for a screw.

[steelvibe]

Originally Posted by OnTheFidele

Also, @steelvibe, the Magnum Locks with no wheel might not have that issue. I spoke with a luthier today and he shared that he loves those in particular for his detachable neck guitars. The tuners lock themselves at the right pressure without the need for a screw.

I have some Gotoh mini non-locking in Cosmic Black on my Journey and they are great. I no longer have the RainSong but thanks for letting me know.

[jricc]

Great write up on the tuners. Thanks for sharing your experience mbroz. While I don't have a need for locking tuners, I dig the matte finish!

Is that a custom truss rod cover? If so, where did you get it? Mine is a thick piece of plastic

[mbroz]

@jricc - Thanks. That is the stock truss rod cover that came with it. I have read where some folks had issues with strings laying on the truss rod cover and looking for thinner ones. This one is thin for sure, but I can't tell what it's made of without taking it off. Even thin, the strings come very close or are actually touching it (sort of hard to tell but I can't slide a piece of paper under them).

@OnTheFidele - I did see one tuner that didn't have the wheel that I could have gotten (SG301 MG Set L3+R3) that was black with tortoise plastic buttons but they were 18:1 instead of 21:1 and not listed as "satin black" despite looking "matte" in the photos to me. Of course those are sold out, so I didn't think about them too much. That site lists something like 500 Gotoh tuners and their search options are less than optimal...so it's a bit of a rabbit hole to find what you want..although fun, as rabbit holes go I suppose.