Looper Klutz

[slewis]

Originally Posted by capefisherman

Thanks for all the great info and advice. I ordered one of the Electro Harmonix 720 loopers and will report back with results that hopefully will help klutzes like me who have been frustrated by loopers in the past. As I said, I don't intend to layer on multiple loops or even store them, in the beginning anyway until I become comfortable with it.

I view this thing as a viable addition to my overall sound and don't intend to use it on every song, probably just a few when I perform. I've seen way too many single guitarists who engage a loop and then noodle endlessly..... best way I've seen to lose the attention of an audience, unless of course you are a spectacular lead guitarist (which I don't claim to be) or famous like Ed Sheeran who seems to know how to use a looper to great effect. But anyway, thanks
- Gene

That’s pretty much exactly how I use mine when I gig, too — I probably play leads over live-recorded looped verses on close to half of the songs I do, but they’re all the leads (or pretty close to them!) that people have heard in the original song. Some examples on my website’s video page if you’re interested, but they’re nothing fancy. I agree that looping can be overdone and I really don’t care to hear the built-up, layer by layer loop thing more than twice a night or so — it’s a bit show-offy to me. And I applaud your willingness to not play pre-recorded loops. Do it all live, no drum machines, no tracks, no pre-recorded loops.

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

That said, single button loopers promise ease of use, but this is usually not the case for most players. I've said it many times in the past, Do NOT buy a single button looper!

Originally Posted by slewis

And I couldn’t count the times that I’ve advised people to never, ever, EVER, EVER buy a single-button looper, for exactly the reasons described in this thread.

I don't gig, so maybe this is good advice for people using a looper in a gigging situation - I couldn't say. But I'm really glad I never heard from either of you before I started using loopers. For a home player, I just don't have any issues with them at all. I have an EHX 720 on my small pedal-board (used mostly when traveling or staying in a tiny winter rental condo where we are now) and I use it with both buttons because I'm not into the effects the second button would otherwise control. I tried an EXH 360 first and I frankly preferred everything about it except the limited amount of time it gave you. I'd often fill up 6 minutes before I'd used all 11 tracks it had available - on the 720 I can easily fit the 10 tracks it offers.

And at home on my large board, I have both a TC Ditto and a Boss RC-3, both are one button loopers and I like them both a lot. I'm not gonna get into why I have both of them on that board but I use them both and sometimes loop from one into the other to save stuff. I just don't find the one button layout difficult at all. I do most spontaneous recording on the Ditto - it's one button to start recording, one button to end the recording and start playback and it's only a double hit when I want to stop playback. I find this incredibly easy to use and intuitive.

So, if you're using loopers in a gigging situation, maybe the above advice is good - I can't say. But if you're not and just want a looper to work out ideas, to jam to, to whatever, there's nothing at all wrong with a one button looper. It might take an extra minute to get comfortable with how it works. But the real challenge with learning to use a looper is not how many times you have to push the button, it's just getting your timing down.

So MAYBE don't get a one button looper, but MAYBE do - they're not that tough and their simplicity has some real upsides, not to mention if you have limited real estate on your board. Or limited budget - you can get really decent little knockoffs of the Ditto on Amazon for $40 or so...

-Ray

[tribedescribe]

I also ran into the same issues as you with many of the loopers I tried and sold a bunch. I really like the boss RC1 looper. Its cheap and has a aux out that gives you a dedicated stop button and undo. The stop button also does silent erase. The coolest thing is the display, which tells you where you are in the loop. At first I thought the big switch would be weird on the boss, but in practice is gives you a bigger area to hit and has a nice pedal action.

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by raysachs

I don't gig, so maybe this is good advice for people using a looper in a gigging situation - I couldn't say.

Hi Ray

Single button loopers in a live setting are limiting.

You have to remember to double tap and stand on the button to kill loops. It's simple at home to do the double tap and stand after you're done with a song, but because it turns the sound on for a second…which live is disrupting (unless you also have a mute switch downline from the looper) a two button unit fixes that.

Of course with the Boss RC-3 (single button $100 unit) you can add an extension pedal/switch for $40 and it turns it into a two pedal. This combo is less than ½ the price of the RC-30 two pedal unit (which of course brings extra features besides the two pedals).

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Ray

Single button loopers in a live setting are limiting.

You have to remember to double tap and stand on the button to kill loops. It's simple at home to do the double tap and stand after you're done with a song, but because it turns the sound on for a second…which live is disrupting (unless you also have a mute switch downline from the looper) a two button unit fixes that.

Of course with the Boss RC-3 (single button $100 unit) you can add an extension pedal/switch for $40 and it turns it into a two pedal. This combo is less than ½ the price of the RC-30 two pedal unit (which of course brings extra features besides the two pedals).

I can see that it could be more of a problem in a gigging situation, which is why I qualified my statement. I just didn't agree with the advice that nobody should EVER buy a one button looper.

I had an aux 2 button footswitch for the RC3 when I was using it as a primary looper, but I used the switch mostly for scrolling through tracks rather than for stop-start actions. Now I use the Ditto for almost all initial recording and the RC3 is there just as a really easy and readily available recording storage device, so I took the extra footswitch off to save space...

-Ray

[slewis]

Originally Posted by raysachs

I can see that it could be more of a problem in a gigging situation, which is why I qualified my statement. I just didn't agree with the advice that nobody should EVER buy a one button looper. I had an aux 2 button footswitch for the RC3 when I was using it as a primary looper, but I used the switch mostly for scrolling through tracks rather than for stop-start actions. Now I use the Ditto for almost all initial recording and the RC3 is there just as a really easy and readily available recording storage device, so I took the extra footswitch off to save space...
-Ray

Your point is well taken, Ray, I’ll certainly concede that my “don’t buy, EVER” statement was intended for performance situations. At home, that double-tap timing wouldn’t be as critical (and I’ll admit some people can make it work) but in my experience, for a performance situation, it adds unnecessary complexity where perfect timing (or as close as you can get it) is critical. Loop on!

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by raysachs

I don't gig, so maybe this is good advice for people using a looper in a gigging situation - I couldn't say. But I'm really glad I never heard from either of you before I started using loopers. For a home player, I just don't have any issues with them at all. I have an EHX 720 on my small pedal-board (used mostly when traveling or staying in a tiny winter rental condo where we are now) and I use it with both buttons because I'm not into the effects the second button would otherwise control. I tried an EXH 360 first and I frankly preferred everything about it except the limited amount of time it gave you. I'd often fill up 6 minutes before I'd used all 11 tracks it had available - on the 720 I can easily fit the 10 tracks it offers.

And at home on my large board, I have both a TC Ditto and a Boss RC-3, both are one button loopers and I like them both a lot. I'm not gonna get into why I have both of them on that board but I use them both and sometimes loop from one into the other to save stuff. I just don't find the one button layout difficult at all. I do most spontaneous recording on the Ditto - it's one button to start recording, one button to end the recording and start playback and it's only a double hit when I want to stop playback. I find this incredibly easy to use and intuitive.

So, if you're using loopers in a gigging situation, maybe the above advice is good - I can't say. But if you're not and just want a looper to work out ideas, to jam to, to whatever, there's nothing at all wrong with a one button looper. It might take an extra minute to get comfortable with how it works. But the real challenge with learning to use a looper is not how many times you have to push the button, it's just getting your timing down.

So MAYBE don't get a one button looper, but MAYBE do - they're not that tough and their simplicity has some real upsides, not to mention if you have limited real estate on your board. Or limited budget - you can get really decent little knockoffs of the Ditto on Amazon for $40 or so...

-Ray

I'm glad you never heard from me, too!

I gigged pretty often over 30 years but only do it occasionally now, and do not use a looper for live performance situations.

My reasoning comes from having had both. With the two button looper I simply don't have to manipulate a single button with two presses to do what I can do with a simple tap of a second button.

Size considerations? The EHX-720 is a couple inches wider than my old RC-1. I got the room.

Cost? The EHX-720 comes with a power supply that you have to purchase separately for the RC-1 and other Boss loopers. The actual cost is something like 20 bucks more, but you get 10 storage slots and some really nice features, even for home use. I particularly like the loop fade function, as it eliminates that abrupt change from accompaniment to dead quiet.

The RC-1 does have that nice rotating display that lets you know where you are in the overall loop. The EHX-720 does the same thing if you select the display to show "loop progress". No matter what the length of your loop it counts from 9 down to 0 so you know how far along in the loop you are.

I have nothing against anyone who wants to use a single button looper, but my recommendations are from my personal experience and are also the same advice that the large majority of looper users will provide.

Those users offering that advice must not ALL be wrong.

[steved65]

I also just use the RC-1 with the external footswitch. Basically becomes a three button looper. You can end a loop with the stop button so you get the loop... but it doesn't immediately start.

Start
Stop
Undo

The RC1 lets you configure it so that the loop can be set to immediate playback or immediate overdubs. I have one or two songs that immediate overdubs would be good on. Everything else is best with immediate playback.

Of course if you end the loop with the stop button it just stores the loop... no playback or overdub until you trigger it.

[jwhelan56]

Maybe this one? It's just coming out, and its $200:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...2-looper-pedal

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by jwhelan56

Maybe this one? It's just coming out, and its $200:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...2-looper-pedal

Looks like you still have to do the double-tap stop function for either loop?

For the additional $75 (considering the power supply is included, too...) you get 100 storage slots and a lot of functionality in the Electroharmonix 22500.

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...o-looper-pedal

[capefisherman]

Originally Posted by raysachs

Well sir,you helped me master the Bm chord, so I’ll try to help you here...

The Electro Harmonix 720 has two buttons and can operate just as you describe. You can use it as a one button looper (with all of the double-tapping you don’t like, and just use the second button for “FX” like half speed and reversed playback of a loop. But if you use the second button as a STOP button, a single tap of the second button will stop a recording or a playback without anything additional happening after. Or you can erase a loop without starting playback first by just holding down the second button. It also has a dial that gives you 10 separate tracks you can record and save (up to a total of 720 seconds - 12 minutes). But you don’t have to use the FX or the tracks and it can be exactly the looper you were suggesting...

-Ray

Well, wanted to finally report back with the results of my looper search. Thanks Ray!! The 720 is - as you said - exactly what I was looking for and after a couple hours of experimenting I *think* I have graduated from Looper Klutz to Looper User. Looper Expert is a ways off, however. In any case, this thing does EXACTLY what I had hoped, easy to use, no noise when you erase a loop, and I doubt I'll ever need 12 minutes of recording time. The only thing I need a bit more practice with is being perfectly coordinated with my Boss rhythm machine because being even a half second off when a loop is created and then replayed in relation to that machine is NOT good.

I do think it affects the tone of my guitar a bit even when disengaged but that may be a case of switching around the order of the few pedals and a Red Eye pre-amp that I use.

Anyway, as with all devices I will use the looper sparingly but it does add another option to my overall sound and if you are a Looper Klutz like I used to be, I heartily recommend the Electro Harmonix 420.

Gene
capecodacoustics.com

[MigueldeMaria]

There is a solution to the difficulty of the double-tap issue for Ditto-type loopers--practice! It's a skill that's susceptible to improvement like anything else, and dedicated, mindful repetitions make all the difference. I think a lot of us just start playing with the looper and don't consider its operation worthy of work like, well, every other skill music requires.

Like, say we just practiced the double tap fifty or a hundred times a day for two weeks. It would take a few minutes and would likely create a skill-block that completely solves the problem.

[raysachs]

Originally Posted by capefisherman

Well, wanted to finally report back with the results of my looper search. Thanks Ray!! The 720 is - as you said - exactly what I was looking for and after a couple hours of experimenting I *think* I have graduated from Looper Klutz to Looper User.

Anyway, as with all devices I will use the looper sparingly but it does add another option to my overall sound and if you are a Looper Klutz like I used to be, I heartily recommend the Electro Harmonix 420.

Glad it’s working out Gene. As others have mentioned, there are a number of good ones. I really like the 10 memory banks of the 720. Just to let you know, there’s a typo in your last line that might have people searching for an EHX 420, which doesn’t exist. Yet.

Originally Posted by MigueldeMaria

There is a solution to the difficulty of the double-tap issue for Ditto-type loopers--practice! It's a skill that's susceptible to improvement like anything else, and dedicated, mindful repetitions make all the difference. I think a lot of us just start playing with the looper and don't consider its operation worthy of work like, well, every other skill music requires.

I agree. I learned on a one-button looper and when I first tried a two-button looper, I wondered what all the fuss was about. The two button looper isn’t that easy and theone button looper isn’t that hard. By far the hardest part of using a looper is getting comfortable with the timing of beginning and ending a loop so it sounds seamless when it’s playing back. That’s initially impossible, then it gets pretty automatic, but it’s the whole ballgame. Whether you have to double tap to end playback is just background noise. IMHO.

-Ray

[capefisherman]

Practice the double tap fifty to a hundred times a day for two weeks?! Yikes. I can think of about a dozen skills that would benefit from that kind of practicing rather than practicing press a button at the right time, especially when there is a much, much easier alternative with two dedicated buttons. But hey, different strokes for different folks and all that.....

[MigueldeMaria]

Originally Posted by capefisherman

Practice the double tap fifty to a hundred times a day for two weeks?! Yikes. I can think of about a dozen skills that would benefit from that kind of practicing rather than practicing press a button at the right time, especially when there is a much, much easier alternative with two dedicated buttons. But hey, different strokes for different folks and all that.....

I'm proposing 200 seconds a day for two weeks. That's a little over three minutes a day for two weeks to get a skill that you can use the rest of your life.

I'm struggling to think of any skill on the guitar that take less time than that to learn. Personally I didn't find double-tapping difficult and the ease and great sound of the Ditto served me very well. It was $100 and I made tens of thousands gigging with it.

But as you say, YMMV.