LR Baggs Anthem vs Lyric

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by Rmz76

Brad Paisley who unlike many country artist is actually known for his guitar skills went with the Aura as the stock pickup/preamp on his signature j-45. For every player who says it's not expressive there are plenty of pros who seem to love it.

Well I'm a pro (easily over 250 gigs a year, mostly acoustic solo) and I like Fishman products, generally don't like LR baggs products, but I love the Lyric in my 50's reissue J45. And as for Aura technology it has artifacts that I hear in the tones that sound much more un-natural than the Lyric, and I've tried most every Aura sample out there. I think much of the high end stuff you're hearing is people not dialing in the presence control properly. And as for K&K I constantly scratch my head when people rave about them. I have Pure Minis in two different guitars and they are both overly boomy, and I've have the K&K XLR preamp, and a custom Archangel! I'm definately going to pull those out of the guitars and replace them with Lyrics!

[53D18]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

Well I'm a pro (easily over 250 gigs a year, mostly acoustic solo) and I like Fishman products, generally don't like LR baggs products, but I love the Lyric in my 50's reissue J45. And as for Aura technology it has artifacts that I hear in the tones that sound much more un-natural than the Lyric, and I've tried most every Aura sample out there. I think much of the high end stuff you're hearing is people not dialing in the presence control properly. And as for K&K I constantly scratch my head when people rave about them. I have Pure Minis in two different guitars and they are both overly boomy, and I've have the K&K XLR preamp, and a custom Archangel! I'm definately going to pull those out of the guitars and replace them with Lyrics!

I'm also a pro and have the K&K in 2 guitars, and always find them too boomy and direct sounding for my tastes (Collings OM1A and D1A). Tried most of the usual good to great pre's and always the same problem to my ears, I have to EQ it to death to get a decent sound and that's all it ever is decent. I actually far prefer the sound of my Tak TS340SBG flatpicker/cool tube with the added triax blended in. With the right EQ and through a good system this is a superb easy to dial in set up that doesn't sound like the taks of old to me, much better.
I've tried very hard to like the K&K but have given up, I do like the Lyric but it sure is finicky to EQ right although it's a much more natural sound, particularly for flatpicking than the K&K.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by 53D18

I'm also a pro and have the K&K in 2 guitars, and always find them too boomy and direct sounding for my tastes (Collings OM1A and D1A). Tried most of the usual good to great pre's and always the same problem to my ears, I have to EQ it to death to get a decent sound and that's all it ever is decent. I actually far prefer the sound of my Tak TS340SBG flatpicker/cool tube with the added triax blended in. With the right EQ and through a good system this is a superb easy to dial in set up that doesn't sound like the taks of old to me, much better.
I've tried very hard to like the K&K but have given up, I do like the Lyric but it sure is finicky to EQ right although it's a much more natural sound, particularly for flatpicking than the K&K.

I agree with everything you said, and yes the Lyric is quite hard to EQ, and for that reason, many times, I grab my other Fishman equipped guitars (Martin HD28, and vintage Gibson Gospel). But when I spend the time with the Lyric I can make it sound good by using my Dtar Equinox. I have never gotten a good sound out of a K&K as a primary pickup*. I find you need at least 3 bands of overlapping EQ that are fully parametric to get the lyric there, but it does have that natural sound. Today I dual sourced it with a Dimarzio Angel with the pole piece set deeper into the pickup body so they strings would click against them, and it sounded pretty good.

*this is what I call a good sound... https://soundcloud.com/daniel-weldon...-b-martin-hd28

[53D18]

Yes, thats a great recorded sound rockabilly, whats the chain? I'm mostly an ensemble player these days, concert style gigs. I have a range of set ups depending on the situation, the best is a vintage D18 (see signature) with a good stand mounted condenser or my Dpa 4099, I also have a lyric in it and use the venue pre, but still not as good as the dpa. Nobody believes that the sound I get out of the tak is way better than the k&k's until they hear it live mixed in with the other instruments. I use it with the venue and boutique tube buffer, both the tak and the buffer have vintage nos tubes, this helps a lot.

I haven't tried an anthem yet, as I don't like undersaddles in my good guitars, in any case they aren't practical with through saddles like vintage Martins. I've been playing around with the lyric for over a year now, as you say it's good but eq is more fiddly than I like, even with the baggs venue pre. A couple of times I just couldn't get the lyric right on gigs and switched to the tak, 1 minute set up, great sound, they certainly got those flatpicker guitars with the cool tube pre right, a great working tool for little money. I sometimes wonder why I bother trying aftermarket pickups in my good guitars, ever hopeful I suppose.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by 53D18

Yes, thats a great recorded sound rockabilly, whats the chain?

It was a 4 track recording. No compression, no EQ, some Waves Verb!

Track 1 - Manley VOXBOX preamp Duncan SA-6 pickup
Track 2 - RME UCX preamp Rode NTK Mid mic
Track 3 - RME UCX preamp Rode K2 Side mic
Track 4 - RME UCX preamp Rode K2 Side mic (Track 3 reverse phased)

On all my guitars I use a stand mounted condensor that I lean into when I need it, it's the same as my vocal mic, a Shure Beta 87A. I was hoping the lyric would replace that, but it hasn't yet. I use a variety of different pickups in my guitars, single and dual sourced. I'm a chronic experimenter

[David-NJ]

Originally Posted by jseth

I hope you read enough of the posts regarding the Anthem SL on this Forum, before you installed your SL... God knows you would have read me posting about that very loss of volume and shift in tone after the Anthem was installed...

I have had my SL systems in both my Mark Angus 6 and 12 string guitars for several years now, maybe even 4 or 5 years? They still sound great when amplified; that's why they are still in the guitars!

I feel that a bit of the volume has come back on my 6 string Angus; not all, but most. I would equate that with the Element "squishing' more fully into place under the saddle. Unfortunately (only for the sound comparison) I had some major work done to the guitar, and that work changed the way the guitar "feels", to the point that it was almost like playing a different guitar from the one I have owned and played since 1979... so I can not comment on whether the tone is "back" to normal or not...

This is a great thread without a doubt. I specifically use systems that don't require an external box -- 1/4" plug to PA and go. What I have found is that it is ALL a huge set of compromises. I have a guitar with a full Anthem setup, used to have one with a Fishman Aura+ setup, have one with a simple Fishman Sonitone setup, and my best friend has one with a Baggs Lyric setup, one with an Anthem SL setup, and one that just uses a Baggs M80 pickup at the soundhole. Here's what we have observed:

1. Baggs full Anthem: lots of hardware; preamp is large; does affect acoustic sound a little; sounds very very good plugged in at low and high volumes. Ability to swap mic/ust mix for different PAs is super useful, and the battery indicator is useful.

2. Baggs Anthem SL: nice minimal effect on soundhole; preamp is tiny; does affect acoustic sound a little; sounds good plugged in at low and high volumes. Mix screw is impossible to use on the fly, and that really sucks. No battery indicator poses a potential danger.

3. Baggs Lyric: nice minimal effect on soundhole; preamp is tiny; does not affect acoustic sound perceptibly; sounds good plugged in a low volume but feeds back at high volumes and the bass becomes flabby.

4. Fishman Aura+: aesthetics of having an LED window and two knobs on the side of the guitar highly questionable; has tons of features and UI is challenging to learn; preamp board inside guitar is huge; came with guitar so no opinion on whether acoustic sound is affected but surely so; sounds okay plugged in at any volume but a bit "synthetic" and processed rather than the actual instrument; onboard tuner is handy

5. Fishman Sonitone: nice minimal effect on soundhole; simple to use; not expensive; has some of that good old Ovation-y "quack" sound and not in the same sonic league as the others; low-bat indicator is handy; good at high volumes. B

6. Baggs M80: sounds great but messes with acoustic sound materially. Ugly.


All in, the full Anthem has proven the most useful although I don't like the big thing in the soundhole or the acoustic tone compromise. The Lyric system, while great and avoiding having a UST and attendant tone loss, just isn't as tight on the low end, not even close. The Anthem SL sorely lacks the mixing wheel and a battery thing. The Aura+ is too processed on the guiar and too ugly. The Fishman Sonitone is fine and easy to live with, but doesn't develop that rich, nuanced sound that the others do.

Is there a way to combine a Lyric with an M80? I have a funny feeling that would produce the best sound of all, although I have no idea how to do it. The M80 gets the solid lows that a UST does but without the attendant quack. In other words, an Anthem-type system but with an M80 rather than a UST.

[Petty1818]

Originally Posted by David-NJ

1. Baggs full Anthem: lots of hardware; preamp is large; does affect acoustic sound a little; sounds very very good plugged in at low and high volumes. Ability to swap mic/ust mix for different PAs is super useful, and the battery indicator is useful.

2. Baggs Anthem SL: nice minimal effect on soundhole; preamp is tiny; does affect acoustic sound a little; sounds good plugged in at low and high volumes. Mix screw is impossible to use on the fly, and that really sucks. No battery indicator poses a potential danger.

I have worried about the Anthem altering the unplugged tone of my guitar if installed. I have read many threads and discussed this issue with techs and I tend to find that most people don't notice enough of an impact to justify not installing the pickup.

However, I wonder how many people notice a change after reading threads online where people mention noticing a change in their unplugged tone? I am not saying that it's not possible but I also find it hard to believe that it's that easy to notice. I think sometimes we can make ourselves believe we hear a big difference, I know I am like that.

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I have worried about the Anthem altering the unplugged tone of my guitar if installed. I have read many threads and discussed this issue with techs and I tend to find that most people don't notice enough of an impact to justify not installing the pickup.

However, I wonder how many people notice a change after reading threads online where people mention noticing a change in their unplugged tone? I am not saying that it's not possible but I also find it hard to believe that it's that easy to notice. I think sometimes we can make ourselves believe we hear a big difference, I know I am like that.

It's very well established that all humans are like that, but I often get in trouble when I point out that fact.

Fran

[rschultz]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

Well I'm a pro (easily over 250 gigs a year, mostly acoustic solo) and I like Fishman products, generally don't like LR baggs products, but I love the Lyric in my 50's reissue J45. And as for Aura technology it has artifacts that I hear in the tones that sound much more un-natural than the Lyric, and I've tried most every Aura sample out there. I think much of the high end stuff you're hearing is people not dialing in the presence control properly. And as for K&K I constantly scratch my head when people rave about them. I have Pure Minis in two different guitars and they are both overly boomy, and I've have the K&K XLR preamp, and a custom Archangel! I'm definately going to pull those out of the guitars and replace them with Lyrics!

Before you pull that K&K out, just add the Lyric to it. Mix them to taste, great combo.

[JJBoogie]

Originally Posted by j3ffr0

I concur that the Anthem noticeably robs the guitar of it's original sound. Somewhere between the abraded UST and the bulky preamp. I installed it and had to take it back out.

However, I will say that the thing sounds pretty good. Almost as good as the Taylor ES and better than the Fishmans.

Sorry to drudge up an old thread. I am considering putting an Anthem in my Ceo7. I hated the Taylor ES system. Made me sell my gorgeous 912 model. Anyways I am not really even an acoustic player but I want something that sounds good to me.

[Vancebo]

Originally Posted by JJBoogie

Sorry to drudge up an old thread. I am considering putting an Anthem in my Ceo7. I hated the Taylor ES system. Made me sell my gorgeous 912 model. Anyways I am not really even an acoustic player but I want something that sounds good to me.

Anthem could indeed work for you. I liked it when I had them in my guitars. Still pulled them for a little known handmade pickup called the Dazzo. I would also suggest another similar option called the Trance Amulet. The Trance has the onboard battery powered preamp, the Dazzo has no internal controls or battery which frees you up to use you choice of outboard preamp/DI. My set-up is simple. Dazzo to a Red Eye Preamp. No EQ needed. With a live band I turn up the Treble knob a bit. My picky ears do not miss having a mic in the signal chain.

[$ongWriter]

I've owned 2 or 3 Anthems...also I was here in Nashville when they installed them into a bunch of folks guitars one night. I got to watch Mr. Baggs do the installation, then the next night go back to the concert and hear the guitars. (just to name a few...he put one in Pat Flynn's D-28, one in Janice Ian's tiny tiny parlor and Skip Ewing's Taylor)(also Kathy Matey's Martin OM) This pick up sounded great in any guitar..period!!.The Lyric to my ear is different...Tried it in a few of my guitars...(in a new version D-28..sounded thin)..never liked it..until today!!!...My Collings CJ came to me with a K&K installed...I like K&K pick ups...but for some reason just didn't work in this guitar. I took my Lyric out of one guitar and stuck it in this one...and BAM!!...sounds amazing!...so happy not to have to buy another pick up for this guitar. My CJ is very balanced..not boomy...and not thin sounding..it's in the sweet spot...I think that is the secret...in a balanced guitar the Lyric may be good...even great!!..THANKS TO MR. BAGGS...

[maxtheaxe]

I've also been considering using the Anthem in my Larrivee L-10, but I have a built-in skepticism regarding USTs...doubly so when I hear criticism that it alters the unplugged sound. This was one of the main reasons I went with the K&K on some of my guitars...minimalist, sound board mounted so no quack, does absolutely nothing to the tone of the guitar by itself, sounds real good if properly EQed...

I have K&K PWMs in 4 of my guitars...it hasn't been easy to manage but of late I'm finding that I can get them to sound quite good. One of the main reasons for this is that I finally broke down and got a K&K Mach II XLR preamp, which seems to address some known EQ and impedance issues and has a very useful, sweep-able notch filter.

The question I have is in regard to a couple comments here about using the K&K transducers instead of the Element in the Anthem system. Can this really work? Would there be any concern with impedance mismatch? Is it just a matter of wiring in the K&K in place of the Element UST?

I kinda wonder if the K&K could be problematic in a system like this, without it's own EQ and that notch filter engaged.