TLM 103 vs c414 XLii

PANDAPANDELO · #1 10-05-2020, 03:21 PM

For vocals (priority) and stereo acoustic recording (paired with a km184)... Have you guys any experience with those microphones? Differences on sound, etc?

Thank you!

Brent Hahn · #2 10-05-2020, 04:14 PM

From doing both music and VO/spoken word, I have a lot of experience with the TLM 103 and cannot recommend it for speech or vocals. I've heard recordings done with them from a greater distance, such as drum overheads and miking a section of an orchestra, where they sounded better.

alohachris · #3 10-05-2020, 04:46 PM

Aloha Rodrigo,

I agree with Brent that the Neumann TLM 103 is NOT a good mic for vocals. It filled a lower LDC price point for Neumann. But I feel it is overpriced & it underperformed in my audition - sounding dull & not all that clear. Some like it. But avoid this one, Rodrigo, (to me, it's a $$$ dog). The TLM 102 for some reason sounds better on guitar.

The AKG 414XLii multi-pattern "small" LDC is a great jack of all trades mic. I've owned several models of the 414. It's very common in pro studio's, used for everything (lotsa percussion). It sounds very good (natural, clear, detailed & balanced) on acoustic guitar. I even used it live combined w/ a SBT pickup in quiet restaurant gigs. Sounded like my guitars.

It would sound very nice combined with a KM-184 for stereo recording (better than your AT2035) & great for Mid-Side recording as well. But, the 414 is NOT a great mic for recording primary singing, vocals, Rodrigo. You can do better FOR VOCALS with a more complete & versatile sounding LDC.

Check out the Mojave MA-200 cardioid or 300 multi LDC. In the same price range. Much better on Vocals, IMO. The AKG 414 is a great mic on acoustic guitar.

Take care!
alohachris

min7b5 · #4 10-05-2020, 05:02 PM

I can't speak to voice work, but for acoustic guitar I wanted to like the 103 more than I did. I'm a big fan of the 414, and have had most varieties over the years. For guitar anyway, I personally would go with the Xlii for sure. Plus -for aforementioned stereo recording- if I remember correct the 103 is cardioid only, while the 414, in figure eight mode with your 184 as the "mid" mic, would be a heck of a mid/side stereo recording setup.

PANDAPANDELO · #5 10-06-2020, 11:14 AM

The Neumann TLM 49 is a contender, too. Any experience with it?

Thank you!

Brent Hahn · #6 10-06-2020, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PANDAPANDELO

The Neumann TLM 49 is a contender, too. Any experience with it?

Thank you!

The TLM 49 is way better. The 103 is in a class by itself.

RRuskin · #7 10-06-2020, 12:06 PM

I'll probably get some disagreement with this but, I'd get a 2nd KM184. Stereo guitar recording would be better matched and there's no law against using it for vocals. It may be placement sensitive for voice and a pop filter will be in order.

alohachris · #8 10-06-2020, 01:23 PM

Aloha Rodrigo,

Talking studio vocal mic's here. I know you don't have easy access to high-end mic's & gear in Sampa (surprising for how large your city is). But selecting a studio vocal, multi-pattern LDC may be worth the stretch of auditioning - before you buy. Also consider buying USED.

As you know, every voice sounds very different through the same mic. It's the main reason why I did vocal mic shoot-out's at home & in studio's for decades. The thing to do is allow your voice & ears to select the right mic for you - especially for the studio. That means auditioning first. It's an important decision.

The Neumann TLM 49 Cardioid-Only LDC - is among the best of Neumann's more-affordable TLM line. I auditioned it a long time ago. But I remember it having a fairly flat response & sounded good for my vocals, especially compared to the TLM 103 that has a lot of added sizzle in the upper mid's. A Very Nice LDC. But for $1650/new - $1100/used, the TLM 49 is cardioid only. It's better to have the options provided by a multi-pattern LDC, IMO.

However, you may already have a great condenser for recording in your KMS 105. I know that mic well & used it live for a few years. Worked well for my voice. If you like it, you should stick with it for recording too UNTIL you find the perfect studio LDC multi for you. The KMS 105 also sounds really good on acoustic guitar as well, so it gives you that versatility.

Even with it's slight boost as a live mic, I think the KMS 105 is better for many types of voices than either the 103 or even the 414 would be. The TLM 49 cardioid? You should put an ear on it first. Could be the one your voice decides works best & it's not as expensive as other classic Neumann studio vocal multi-pattern Tube LDC's like the U87ai.

NOTE: To be totally honest, since the mid-90's I've never really loved any of the newer Neumann LDC's on my voice - except the $5K M149 Tube Multi-Pattern LDC. For example, I much preferred the sound of classic U87's from the early 70's to the newer, hyped U87ai's. And many agree, Rodrigo.

I know you're planning on mixing the new KM-184 SDC w/ the AT2035 SDC for guitar. I know mixing mic's can work, kind of. But it can produce some matching issues for recording, like phasing issues, note cancellation & drop-outs that would not happen using a pair of the same mic. I'm a firm believer that all gear in a signal chain must be matched for quality. Otherwise, you lose headroom. The KM-184 is a much, much better mic than the AT2035. See? Though I experimented a lot at one time w/ mic combo's, I always came back to a matched pair of SDC's in stereo for recording an acoustic guitar. Best results.

Have you tried stereo recording solo acoustic pieces or recording vocal & guitar tracks separately, Rodrigo?

Ideally, using a pair of KM-184's for guitar tracks (not the mix & match of the 184/2035 combo) would behave better (w/ EQ to tame the hype). And IMO, recording vocals should be accomplished on an LDC (hopefully multi-pattern) that your voice chooses. Is the KMS 105 that recording mic for you, Rodrigo? Questions that auditioning can answer.

Here's a great mic I bought (I highly recommend it) that sounded very natural & unhyped on my voice: Mojave MA300 multi-pattern Tube LDC:

https://www.sweetwater.com/store/det...e-satin-nickel

I'm sure you'll find the right mic's for your really nice voice & music, my friend. Happy hunting!

A Hui Hou!
alohachris

DupleMeter · #9 10-24-2020, 09:41 AM

I have used the 103 on acoustic guitars...and I like it for that. Not so much for vocals. I find it performs much better with a good pre...like an API 512 or Neve 1073 kind of thing. Something to add some weight to the sound.

I would suggest taking a look at an Audio-Technica AT4050. They are workhorses. They sound good on just about everything. We recorded all the choral parts for one of the Halo games with 3 of them.

My only complaint with the 414s is the new ones have been very inconsistent, quality wise. I've pretty much given up on anything new from AKG at this point.

Depending on your budget, I might also suggest the Bock Audio iFet. I have one of these at the studio & I just love it on everything. It's an interpretation of a classic 47fet, but not an exact recreation. So it leans in the 47 direction but is very much its own thing.

HTH.

RRuskin · #10 10-24-2020, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

My only complaint with the 414s is the new ones have been very inconsistent, quality wise. I've pretty much given up on anything new from AKG at this point.

Inconsistency has been my complaint with AKG for a long time. I had 5 451E's and no 2 sounded alike. I auditioned quite a number of 414's and had written them off until stumbling upon a TL II version that worked for me.

I did have a chance to use a pair of C12A's that sounded delicious but that's a whole different tax bracket worth of mics.

Brent Hahn · #11 10-24-2020, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

My only complaint with the 414s is the new ones have been very inconsistent, quality wise.

FWIW, over the years there have been something like 11 different, distinct varieties of the "414." They all sound different. But I've never encountered inconsistencies between specimens of the same exact model, not counting the vast difference between the original brass capsule and the factor-refurb teflon capsule in the early EB and EB P48 models.

RRuskin · #12 10-24-2020, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

...But I've never encountered inconsistencies between specimens of the same exact model, ...

I've experienced differences within the same versions from overly bright to extremely dull.

Brent Hahn · #13 10-24-2020, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RRuskin

I've experienced differences within the same versions from overly bright to extremely dull.

The original EB and P48 can be night and day depending on which capsule it has. Outside of those two, I've never experienced that.

AcousticDreams · #14 10-24-2020, 12:34 PM

I also need to purchase a vocal microphone.

I was really looking forward to going to Vintage King and trying out a series of mics at the same time, until our current situation made that impossible. They have a vocal booth with tons of microphones lined up in a row.

Microphones might be specific to the performer and or, his style of music. In other words, what works for one type of voice, might not work for another. I also feel this way about guitars. I have two very nice sounding guitars with completely different tones. When I play the two guitars in front of my friend, My amazon Rosewood guitars stands out head and shoulders. We both agree. However when my friend plays both of my guitars, the Walnut guitars stands out for him head and shoulders. The Amazon Rosewood is not the right choice for him.

After AlohaChris's great recommendation of the TLM 49, I am even more interested in trying out this microphone. It has been one of the top mics under my consideration to try out.

The top contender for me right now is the Fet Soyuz 17. I have briefly run my voice through both the Fet and the Tube version and liked what I have heard for my voice. However, I know that I need to put it through the paces and give it a hard run before I make a final decision. If I had the monies, I would up to the the tube version.

I have to agree with Duplemeter, the AT4050 is a true workhorse. It works very well on guitars and vocals. I have two of these. And you can get them used so inexpensively at around $400 range. They are very smooth. Definitely give this a try.

I have absolutely no experience with, but Austrian Audio makes a clone of the classic 414. Made in Austria. Their claim is they are using top components and even some of AKG engineers from the past. The demo videos do sound good. At the same time a nice price as well.
https://austrian.audio/

Brent Hahn · #15 10-24-2020, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

I have absolutely no experience with, but Austrian Audio makes a clone of the classic 414. Made in Austria. Their claim is they are using top components and even some of AKG engineers from the past. The demo videos do sound good. At the same time a nice price as well.
https://austrian.audio/

If by classic they mean the EB or P48, it can't be a "clone" if it's transformerless. I personally wouldn't buy a mic intended for vocals that's transformerless if I wanted to use it in a band or any other kind of dense-mix setting. The transformer helps a lot in making the voice cut and be intelligible in a way that doesn't require brightening. No idea about the science involved, but does make a difference. But for the kind of singer/guitarist stuff most of the folks here are into, transformerless is probably fine.