Experiments with dual output mic - Townsend L22

[Doug Young]

We had a discussion in another thread about the Austrian Audio mic and Eric Skye had an interesting thought about using it as a side mic for MS, since it has two opposite-facing capsules with separate outputs. I have a Townsend L22 that is similar, and thought I'd check it out. Fun thing is that I can record once, then play endlessly with polar patterns etc, after the fact, as you can with the Austrian Audio mic as well.

This going to be a bit geeky :-), but if anyone's interested in this idea, here's what I tried.

So I set up in an MS-like arrangement, the L22 facing sideways, and a Gefell M300 facing front.

First off, let's just check out the raw L22 track, with the two sideways facing capsules, no emulations or pattern manipulation. Here's how that sounds:



A very interesting thing to notice is that the signal's very correlated. You'd think with the two capsules facing opposite directions, they'd be out of phase, like a figure 8 mic, but they're not. It's much more like an XY mic, very nearly in complete phase.

So next up, I activated the plugin that lets me add mic modeling as well as polar pattern manipulation. First, let's hear the L22, still alone, with a 451 mic model on one side, and an M49 LD on the other, with a supercardiod pattern. This sounds a bit wider, but not all that different:



here's what we're looking at as far as the settings:

L22-451-49.jpg

So next, I tried adding my "mid" mic, the Gefell. As expected, since the L22 is already pretty XY-like, I don't get anything very interesting. It's just a muddier, more mono variant. (I turned back off the plugin, so this is the raw L22, no mic model, no polar pattern change:



Next, I tried flipping the phase of one side of the L22, but I won't even post that, it simply didn't work. The issue is that the two mics, the L22 and Gefell are highly correlated, even tho the L22 is turned sideways. So the in-phase side added to the Gefell, and the out-of-phase side basically cancelled out, leaving me with an image that mostly pulled to one side dramatically.

So next up, let's try to really do MS. I configured the L22 for figure-8 mode. So now I have 2 tracks, one the mono Gefell track, the other a stereo figure 8 track. That gives me the expected MS sound. I used M49s on both sides of the L22. Note that no "decoding" is needed, I basically have the typical manual MS decoding inherently between the 1 mono track and 1 "stereo"/dual figure 8 track. The stereo width is controlled by the relative volume of the 2 mics.



The L22 setup looks like this:

49-figure8.jpg

Finally, just for fun, I tried a different mic model, using a Coles 4038 ribbon mic for the "side" mic. Eric's been doing this with his Royer. Produces a slightly different sound:



Here's the L22 controls for this:

4038-MS.jpg

If you made it this far, let me know what you think!

[Wrighty]

Hi Doug



Some interesting experiments there.



First off, I was surprised by just how good the raw L22 sounded - almost my favourite of the lot for it's warmth and clarity.



Of the others, the "real" MS array sounds good - fuller than the L22 and quite different, but I found myself drawn back to track one a few times and always liking it.



Thanks!



Peter

[Doug Young]

Hi Wrighty, I like the L22 a lot. People often discount it because of the modeling, but the raw mic sounds very good by itself. I used it on several tracks of a Christmas CD I just recorded, and was really happy with it. For guitar, it's especially nice that the self-noise is just 7db. You can use it by itself as a mono or stereo mic, and can also use the software to change the polar patterns, proximity effect, off-axis response, and so - even virtually adjust how far the mic is from the guitar. So you can really fine tune the sound, and you don't even have to use a model to do that (seems to be the same with the Austrian Audio mic).

BTW, I made no effort to match volumes between those clips, and between adding the 3rd mic and the models (which seem to have some volume impact), the clips may be misleading to compare. But I wasn't trying to do a shootout, just explore this idea Eric had of using the dual outputs for a midside-like effect.

[min7b5]

Wow. The internet rules. To wonder out-loud one day about some esoteric stereo recording thought, only to wake up the next day with a detailed example of everything.. So cool Doug!

It’s all so interesting. I prefer regular mid/side with the M49’s (the Coles sound good to me too), but like Peter I was surprised how good the raw L22 track, with just two sideways facing capsules sounds.

[AcousticDreams]

Hey Doug,

This is something that is very much of interest to myself. I have planned on trying something very similar soon. There is no denying the solid sound Mid side offers. So something that is a variation there of...could be of great value. As always...Enjoy your experiments.

I listened to your tracks a couple of times last night. Unfortunately, I have one ear with some sort of blockage-allergies right now. Creating a mild pressure. So can not give any decent evaluations or comments right now.

I was wondering....how far away did you have the Townsend mics from the guitar? And where did you place the mic in relation to the body?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

Hey Doug,

I was wondering....how far away did you have the Townsend mics from the guitar? And where did you place the mic in relation to the body?

About 10 inches away, mid mic (Gefell) about even with the top of the guitar, Townsend below, sort of spanning the soundhole. It's a big mic... That's the placement I typically use for mid-side. The side mic has a big null facing the guitar - at least a normal figure-8 mic does, so you can get away with the mic right in front of the soundhole.

I didn't do much fine-tuning of the placement/sound, tho. I was just going for exploring Eric's idea, not trying to dial in the best sound.

Here's a "real" recording I made using the L22 earlier this year. There are several guitars here, but I used it alone (not MS) for both, likely with some models applied (I don't recall the exact details):

[AcousticDreams]

Absolutely magnificent piece Doug! Love the instrumentation and how it all comes together!

[jklotz]

Very interesting. I remember reading about that thing when it first came out. My initial thoughts were if it's sounds too good to be true......

So Doug, you liked it enough to record some tracks on your album with it? I know you have access to some pretty nice gear. That's quite an endorsement. I'm just worried if I got one, down another wormhole I'd go. This mic model, no this one. But wait, what about the polar pattern???? I'd probably drive myself crazy. ;-)

[Doug Young]

Yes, I've used it quite a bit. I go back and forth. I kind of prefer spaced pairs, which means I'd need two of these, which I keep considering. There are certainly a lot of options, but it's surprisingly easy (and very educational) to be able to do everything after you record. It's a lot faster and easier to try different polar patterns, vary the distance (virtually) from the guitar, dial in proximity effect and so on than it is to record, move mics, re-record, etc. You can try to be scientific about it, or just twist knobs until it sounds good. In practice, it's pretty simple to use.