Where is that extra bass coming from?

[guitaniac]

When I've recorded live sets recently, its often disappointed me that the guitar sound is overly bassy and boomy, despite the fact that an experimental direct recording from the pickup via ToneDexter was well balanced with ToneDexter's EQ set flat.

Part of the problem is that I'm onstage using my Fishman SoloAmp as a monitor while the video cam is out in the "house", listening from the other side of a big JBL Eon1500 speaker. I'm fairly certain that I can adjust for the problem by rolling off some bass at ToneDexter or at my Mackie mixer (before taking the stage), but I'm still rather curious as to where most of the extra bass is coming from. Is it the big speaker? Is it the interaction between the guitar top and speaker sound? Is it the nature of the room? All of the above?

I should no doubt be worried more about the solution than the cause, but I can't help being curious. I don't seem to have a problem with excessive bass when I'm just using the SoloAmp for sound.


I should add that one of the other players was using a clip-on mic the other night. I needed to roll off the bass a full 12db with his rig (high-end Martin dread with clip-on mic).

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

When I've recorded live sets recently, its often disappointed me that the guitar sound is overly bassy and boomy, despite the fact that an experimental direct recording from the pickup via ToneDexter was well balanced with ToneDexter's EQ set flat.

Part of the problem is that I'm onstage using my Fishman SoloAmp as a monitor while the video cam is out in the "house", listening from the other side of a big JBL Eon1500 speaker. I'm fairly certain that I can adjust for the problem by rolling off some bass at ToneDexter or at my Mackie mixer (before taking the stage), but I'm still rather curious as to where most of the extra bass is coming from. Is it the big speaker? Is it the interaction between the guitar top and speaker sound? Is it the nature of the room? All of the above?

I should no doubt be worried more about the solution than the cause, but I can't help being curious. I don't seem to have a problem with excessive bass when I'm just using the SoloAmp for sound.


I should add that one of the other players was using a clip-on mic the other night. I needed to roll off the bass a full 12db with his rig (high-end Martin dread with clip-on mic).

Hi g-niac

You are used to listening from behind the guitar. When you record the room, now you understand the dilemma of reproducing what you've heard via direct signal (headphones) or on a stage amp.

The house is affected by the PA board, the speakers, placement in the room and the room itself.

I have hooked up my looper at times during a sound-check in a new venue and recorded 3 minutes of a variety of styles, and then gone out into the room to listen with the sound techs. That solved it for me.

[Nymuso]

What he said. Use the looper and go out front. There is a looper on my multi-fx and that's about all I use it for.

[guitaniac]

Larry & Nymuso,

That's a great idea. Thanks!

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi g-niac

You are used to listening from behind the guitar. When you record the room, now you understand the dilemma of reproducing what you've heard via direct signal (headphones) or on a stage amp.

This is why I'm always surprised at people who claim to be able to do detailed EQ adjustments from onstage. In my experience, there's just no correlation between the sound onstage, behind the speakers and what's heard out front. The performer is completely in the dark about how things sound out front in most setups. The looper approach works well, tho things can change dramatically as a place fills with people. It's your best shot if you have to do it alone, tho. Better to have a sound person, or at least a trusted audience member who can provide feedback. And ideally, you have a setup that lets you adjust the on-stage sound to something that sounds good to you, and then separately be able to make sure the sound the audience hears is good. Of course, "ideal" rarely happens in real life.

[James May]

The OP's question is a good one, and does not have a simple answer. From my experience, I would cite these as the most probably causes in order of significance:

1. Room acoustics. For example, corners and next to walls have more bass, relative to what you'd hear in phones or outdoors. (I've been playing a few outdoor gigs lately with my 3-piece combo, and I am always amazed how clean and well balance things sound when there is no room to muddy things up with reflections and altered tonal balance.)

2. The sometimes hyped response of PA system speakers or your personal instrument amplifier, even when EQ is set flat. Bass sells.

3. Room acoustics causing the highs to get lost or attenuated, resulting in the PERCEPTION of more bass.

4. Alien spacecraft dumping bass waste from another planet.

5. Foldback from monitors vibrating the top of your instrument, exciting the modal bass response.

Perhaps 4 and 5 are reversed...

[ManyMartinMan]

What Larry said. You can't set your board from on stage you need to be out in the crowd. That's why the newer digital mixers that can be controlled remotely are so great. The sound-person can stand anywhere out in the venue and make adjustments on the fly on a tablet or laptop. I also do what Larry said. I punch in something on the looper or jump drive and listen from the room.

[buzzardwhiskey]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

This is why I'm always surprised at people who claim to be able to do detailed EQ adjustments from onstage. In my experience, there's just no correlation between the sound onstage, behind the speakers and what's heard out front. The performer is completely in the dark about how things sound out front in most setups. The looper approach works well, tho things can change dramatically as a place fills with people. It's your best shot if you have to do it alone, tho. Better to have a sound person, or at least a trusted audience member who can provide feedback. And ideally, you have a setup that lets you adjust the on-stage sound to something that sounds good to you, and then separately be able to make sure the sound the audience hears is good. Of course, "ideal" rarely happens in real life.

This really hit me hard yesterday. Our five man band played a big stage in a city park with a contracted pro sound guy who clearly knew what he was doing. I feel very certain that the sound he produced for the FOH was great. Afterward, he commented on how easy my Tonedexter based guitar was to "get right". And the crowd was very appreciative.

But on stage... it was awful. We could BARELY get it right. And my guitar often sounded hugely boomy and off. And worse, there was simply not enough time to stop and try to make it better.

I'm seriously considering some form of wired IEM "tap" made with a snake splitter and a digital mixer.

[guitaniac]

Thanks to everyone for all the great information.

I got a good laugh from James May's alien spacecraft bass dumping theory. I was reminded of my late friend Bill Morrissey's "The Drivers Song". Its from the perspective of a Massachusetts truck driver whose job is to go out in the middle of the night and dump toxic waste on the back roads of New Hampshire.

[varmonter]

I found this an interesting read.
https://ehomerecordingstudio.com/fletcher-munson-curve/
and may add some understanding.

[MikeBmusic]

Another thing in the room acoustic to consider is the number of bodies in there - the highs will get absorbed more than the lows in a packed room.

[Mr. Jelly]

Bass sound waves are bigger than treble sound waves. When the treble dies out the bass keeps going.