The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 02-02-2013, 04:57 PM
SpiritShooter SpiritShooter is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 205
Default Stereo Mics wanted, $2K budget

So I am looking to purchase a pair of quality mics for acoustic solo recording. I want to make this a one time purchase that will be the basis of my studio.

I have a budget of $2000 +/-.

I have listened to a few, but the comparison is so hard based upon the pre-amp etc. I hear Earthworks QTCV40's the other day and really liked them. But I don'y know enough at this time to make a decision.

With my budget, what would be some viable options that will allow this to hopefully be a one time purchase for years to come.

Looking for suggestions.
Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 02-02-2013, 05:26 PM
sdelsolray sdelsolray is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 6,951
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritShooter View Post
So I am looking to purchase a pair of quality mics for acoustic solo recording. I want to make this a one time purchase that will be the basis of my studio.

I have a budget of $2000 +/-.

I have listened to a few, but the comparison is so hard based upon the pre-amp etc. I hear Earthworks QTCV40's the other day and really liked them. But I don'y know enough at this time to make a decision.

With my budget, what would be some viable options that will allow this to hopefully be a one time purchase for years to come.

Looking for suggestions.
Thanks
Gosh, you could purchase about 95% of the mics (pair) made these days for $2k. That's hundreds and hundreds of pairs.

The Earthworks are very nice. The QTCV40 are omni mics. However, Earthworks mics are quite noisy because they have very small capsules (the smaller the capsule the greater the self-noise, all other things being equal).

I would suggest small or medium diaphragm mics. They are less noisy and work very well for solo acoustic guitar.

Here's a partial list of mics you might want to check out (in no particular order):

Microtech Gefell M300
Microtech Gefell M295, M296 or M297 (used)
Beyer Dynamic M930 or M910
Neumann KM 183, KM184, or KM 185
Peluso P28
Mojave MP100
Mercenary KM69
Neumann KM84 (used)
Neumann KM1xx Series (modular) (used)
3 Zigma CHI (modular)
Oktava (modified) (modular)
Telefunken ELA M 260 set (used)

Beyond your budget a bit, new or used, are Schoeps and DPA.

I've used or owned all of the above mics for solo fingerstyle acoustic and classical guitar. All are different, sometimes subtly and other times significantly. Some are a bit quieter than others, or appear so to the ear (which is an important behavior for me). Some are more forgiving with mic placement than others. Some take eq better than others. Most have a HF lift of some sort. SOme have near ruler flat frequency responses. Some have bass rolloff (either through design or with a bass rolloff switch) to counteract cardioid proximity effect.

Regardless, all of the above mics are what I would call different examples of excellent.

If you narrow down a list of a few, I could give you some more thoughts and experiences with those.

As to the preamp, many will say a good straight wire with gain preamp is all you need, and if you have one of those then the preamp won't make much of a difference. A good preamp needs to be quiet and provide consistent behavior. Build and component quality come into play, as do feature sets. Good serviceable preamps can be found for $100 per channel (e.g., Presonus MP20, Rane DMS22). Exotic preamps can cost $1,500 per channel (e.g., Gordon Model 5, Pendulum Audio MDP-1). Regardless, the microphones used have a much larger impact on the sonic result than does the preamp used. There is a usually a qualitative difference between inexpensive preamps and more expensive ones.

Last edited by sdelsolray; 02-02-2013 at 05:46 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 02-02-2013, 05:35 PM
ukejon ukejon is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 6,603
Default

Wow, nice budget! Couple of Gefells or Telefunkens would be sweet. I found the Earthworks to be noisy as well. Do you want a matched pair or two mics with rather different capsule sizes/voices? Might be fun to get a great SDC and a great LDC, which would offer lots of tonal options for recording.
__________________
My YouTube Page:
http://www.youtube.com/user/ukejon



2014 Pono N30 DC EIR/Spruce crossover
2009 Pono koa parlor (NAMM prototype)
2018 Maton EBG808TEC
2014 Hatcher Greta 13 fret cutaway in EIR/cedar
2017 Hatcher Josie fan fret mahogany
1973 Sigma GCR7 (OM model) rosewood and spruce
2014 Rainsong OM1000N2
....and about 5 really nice tenor ukuleles at any given moment
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 02-02-2013, 05:52 PM
SpiritShooter SpiritShooter is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 205
Default

Ya know, I am not sure, I always felt a matched pair was what I wanted. I wondered about the Earthworks floor noise.

I am very inexperienced with recording studio stuff other than I design then (I am an architect) from a functional and acoustic point of view. I never did the tech stuff.

Now it's my turn for my own use. Should be lots of fun.

Thanks for all the great suggestions. Problem is getting to hear them.
Guess Earthworks is now off the table...on to the next option. I am not in a rush and would love to get some a/b time somewhere.

Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 02-02-2013, 05:56 PM
Repair Dude Repair Dude is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 97
Default

It isnt just the Mics , but the Preamp is going to have a lot to do with the sound as well .

Factor that in the equation , and you will come out much better
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 02-02-2013, 05:58 PM
ukejon ukejon is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Milwaukee
Posts: 6,603
Default

Get Doug Young, Fran Guidry, and AlohaChris (among others) to chime in. They know everything...and then some!

Great advice, Repair Dude. The preamp/interface is a crucial part of the equation here. A $1000 mic through a $169 preamp/interface sounds like $169 or so. What kind of recording space do you have, Spirit?
__________________
My YouTube Page:
http://www.youtube.com/user/ukejon



2014 Pono N30 DC EIR/Spruce crossover
2009 Pono koa parlor (NAMM prototype)
2018 Maton EBG808TEC
2014 Hatcher Greta 13 fret cutaway in EIR/cedar
2017 Hatcher Josie fan fret mahogany
1973 Sigma GCR7 (OM model) rosewood and spruce
2014 Rainsong OM1000N2
....and about 5 really nice tenor ukuleles at any given moment
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 02-02-2013, 06:25 PM
Repair Dude Repair Dude is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 97
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ukejon View Post
Get Doug Young, Fran Guidry, and AlohaChris (among others) to chime in. They know everything...and then some!

Great advice, Repair Dude. The preamp/interface is a crucial part of the equation here. A $1000 mic through a $169 preamp/interface sounds like $169 or so. What kind of recording space do you have, Spirit?
My Recording Space is usually somewhere else .........
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 02-02-2013, 09:23 PM
SpiritShooter SpiritShooter is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 205
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ukejon View Post
Get Doug Young, Fran Guidry, and AlohaChris (among others) to chime in. They know everything...and then some!

Great advice, Repair Dude. The preamp/interface is a crucial part of the equation here. A $1000 mic through a $169 preamp/interface sounds like $169 or so. What kind of recording space do you have, Spirit?
Recording space is the room that I am using as my studio. Once I can start recording, I will design and sound attenuation as needed. The room is basically 12'x14' with a 9' ceiling.

Preamp will be the next part of the equation. I am sure I will be asking for suggestions here as well. After purchasing the mics, it truly wouldn't make send to use a $169 preamp. I would prefer something that can sit on the desk as I really didn't want to have rack mounted gear.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 02-03-2013, 12:34 AM
Fran Guidry Fran Guidry is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Walnut Creek, CA
Posts: 3,712
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Repair Dude View Post
It isnt just the Mics , but the Preamp is going to have a lot to do with the sound as well .

Factor that in the equation , and you will come out much better
Please demonstrate.

I've done double blind tests between $100 and $1500 preamps and been unable to distinguish them. I'm not the only one.

http://www.soundonsound.com/forum/sh...part=1#1009249

Feature set, yes. Build quality, yes. Ergonomics, yes. Workflow yes.

Sonics? Please demonstrate with level matched same performance clips that show an audible difference between clean preamps operated in their linear region.

Fran
__________________
E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key in California - www.kaleponi.com
My YouTube clips
The Homebrewed Music Blog
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 02-03-2013, 01:01 AM
Fran Guidry Fran Guidry is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Walnut Creek, CA
Posts: 3,712
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritShooter View Post
So I am looking to purchase a pair of quality mics for acoustic solo recording. I want to make this a one time purchase that will be the basis of my studio.

I have a budget of $2000 +/-.

I have listened to a few, but the comparison is so hard based upon the pre-amp etc. I hear Earthworks QTCV40's the other day and really liked them. But I don'y know enough at this time to make a decision.

With my budget, what would be some viable options that will allow this to hopefully be a one time purchase for years to come.

Looking for suggestions.
Thanks
Howdy,

I'm the friendly local "it ain't the gear" curmudgeon.

Here are clips of four different mics recording the same source at the same time. The clips are pretty well level matched.

The mics are Shure KSM44 (LD), KSM141 (SD), Schoeps CMC64 (SD), CAD M179 (LD) (not in that order, of course).

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/audio/20090626-F.wav
http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/audio/20090626-G.wav
http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/audio/20090626-H.wav
http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/audio/20090626-I.wav

I've posted these a number of times, especially when the discussion seems headed in a direction that implies that cost is a microphone performance factor. One of these mics costs about $150. One costs over $1500. If cost can predict mic performance then that $1500 mic will jump out, and that $150 mic will be obvious too, right?

Just as in preamps, a high priced mic is different from a low priced one in build quality, finish, ergonomics, or whatever. But there's no necessary correlation between price and audible performance that I've ever been able to hear. You might very well find sonic nirvana with a pair of Audio Technica AT2020s (and the scrupulously clean M-Audio DMP3 preamp).

Fran
__________________
E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key in California - www.kaleponi.com
My YouTube clips
The Homebrewed Music Blog
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 02-03-2013, 07:02 AM
SpiritShooter SpiritShooter is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 205
Default Sonic Nirvana

Fran

Since we are on a first name basis, I am Michael:

First, thanks for your response. Second, before I spend boatloads of pesos, I appreciate the links and time you took to write the response.

I will give it a listen and check back in with you shortly. I have Ultrasone 8 headphones so I am sure that they will allow me to hear the nuances if any.

Please Standby....

After listening to all of the recordings, I have to say that the nuances are very minimal, yet to my ear and to my tastes I like recording "H" the best followed by recording "I".

All of which brings up an interesting question. Assuming that my room will have some amount of imperfection as most do unless it is acoustically perfect, I read that the Schoeps CMC641 is very forgiving of room imperfections. Obviously a matched pair of CMC641 is somewhat over my budget, but buying a single CMC641 is certainly an option adding a second down the line. How real is the 'matched pair" advantage in a microphone of this quality?

Michael

Last edited by SpiritShooter; 02-03-2013 at 09:09 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 02-03-2013, 11:09 AM
SpiritShooter SpiritShooter is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 205
Default Thoughts this AM...

I want this to pretty much be a one time purchase. I feel that spending additional funds now, may prevent the need to sell and purchase again in the future.

My gut tells and ears tell me to buy the Schoeps CMC641 Matched set from the start.

I really don't want to add additional work to EQ something else to get what I want. I listened them in a few Sound Pure Studio recordings and they sounded amazing to me, especially with the Pre they were using.

So the next step is selecting an interface/preamp to allow them to express their talents.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 02-03-2013, 11:31 AM
Fran Guidry Fran Guidry is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Walnut Creek, CA
Posts: 3,712
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritShooter View Post
Fran

Since we are on a first name basis, I am Michael:

First, thanks for your response. Second, before I spend boatloads of pesos, I appreciate the links and time you took to write the response.

I will give it a listen and check back in with you shortly. I have Ultrasone 8 headphones so I am sure that they will allow me to hear the nuances if any.

Please Standby....

After listening to all of the recordings, I have to say that the nuances are very minimal, yet to my ear and to my tastes I like recording "H" the best followed by recording "I".

All of which brings up an interesting question. Assuming that my room will have some amount of imperfection as most do unless it is acoustically perfect, I read that the Schoeps CMC641 is very forgiving of room imperfections. Obviously a matched pair of CMC641 is somewhat over my budget, but buying a single CMC641 is certainly an option adding a second down the line. How real is the 'matched pair" advantage in a microphone of this quality?

Michael
Schoeps will tell you that any two CMC641 assemblies will be matched well.

I'll send the key to the mic comparison in a PM.

Fran
__________________
E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key in California - www.kaleponi.com
My YouTube clips
The Homebrewed Music Blog
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 02-03-2013, 11:38 AM
Fran Guidry Fran Guidry is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Walnut Creek, CA
Posts: 3,712
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpiritShooter View Post
I want this to pretty much be a one time purchase. I feel that spending additional funds now, may prevent the need to sell and purchase again in the future.

My gut tells and ears tell me to buy the Schoeps CMC641 Matched set from the start.

I really don't want to add additional work to EQ something else to get what I want. I listened them in a few Sound Pure Studio recordings and they sounded amazing to me, especially with the Pre they were using.

So the next step is selecting an interface/preamp to allow them to express their talents.
Just to be clear, the characteristics that make a hyper like the MK41 work well in a less than idea room _cannot_ be approximated with EQ.

Fran
__________________
E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi
Slack Key in California - www.kaleponi.com
My YouTube clips
The Homebrewed Music Blog
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 02-03-2013, 11:41 AM
SpiritShooter SpiritShooter is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 205
Default

Makes complete sense...
Thanks Fran
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > RECORD

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=