Long read - Pretty Frustrated with 5 star "go to" shop -

[j3ffr0]

When someone says they have "low" action, that tells me that there are probably some buzzes. When someone says they have "medium" action or higher, I don't expect any buzzing. When someone says "medium-low", I'm thinking there *might* be a buzz or two if I really dig in, but I don't expect it during normal play.

I definitely like my action somewhere between medium-low and medium-high. I think that maybe you are discovering that you don't like "low" action, because you won't tolerate the buzzing. It is probably not realistic to expect that guitar to do well with the action you describe unless you have other guitars set to that spec with the same gauge strings and they work without buzzing.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by TomB'sox

I am sorry you are having issues, but to be honest, blaming the shop seems wrong to me. If I went in and asked them for a specific string height and they gave it to me and now it buzzed, I would blame myself. They did what you asked them to do initially and from there all the rest was to try and fix what you had asked them to do. Most people who ask for a specific set-up like that are pretty set in their ways and that is what they want. If they had refused to do it, the complaint may have been hey don't go in there, they will not even help me.

Go to another good shop, tell them you have a buzz from too low of action and let them work on it. Don't tell them you think you need a new saddle or the truss rod adjusted or sanding done, just let them do what they are trained to do and fix your guitar. Nothing wrong with saying, I would like the lowest action I can get without buzzing.

All of this is my opinion of course.

In my opinion, that is a good opinion.


Too many players attempt to micro-manage guitar repair persons. Instead of approaching a repair person with a precise specification, or precise diagnosis of what needs to be done, better results are often achieved by, instead, stating what the player's objective is - the intended result - rather than by telling the repair person what to do or how to achieve it. (An exception to this is if you have one or more other guitars that are setup exactly how you like and want another to be setup the same way, in which case providing those measurements is helpful.)

As others have stated, a typical action for a steel string acoustic guitar is 3/32", low E, 2/32", high E, with about .003 to .01" of relief. Specifying much lower than that, even with dead-level frets, is to invite it to buzz, depending upon strings, attack, etc. If the frets aren't level, you might get buzzing at high frets even with 3/32 / 2/32" action.

Although rarely mentioned in the "specs" for string height, string height at the nut is also very important, and far less variable. The correct string height in the slots in the nut should, theoretically, put the strings at the same height as the tops of the frets. In practice, to avoid buzzing of open strings under a heavy attack, raising the strings by as much as several thousandths of an inch can be appropriate. Yes, the tolerance between a guitar that plays really well and one that doesn't is that few thousandths of an inch. In no part of the OP's discussion was there mention of string height at the nut. If that wasn't addressed, or at least checked, the job wasn't done properly.

As Tom suggests, probably the best thing to do now is take it to a qualified repair person and start again. This time, specify what you want, not how to get it. What you have stated you want is the easiest to play, without buzzing, for your style and string preference. For the repair person to know what is your "style", he or she will need to hear/see a sampling of your playing to understand the range of what the guitar needs to do to accommodate YOUR playing. You know that the frets are now level - given that they were PLEK'd - leaving the parameters for string height at the nut, string height at the saddle and neck relief. It is perfectly acceptable solution to shim a too-low saddle, if that is necessary.

Before taking you guitar to a new repair person, you might want to familiarize yourself with what is involved in a setup. Here is one article that will walk you through some basics of what is involved: http://charlestauber.com/luthier/Res...May%202015.pdf

[Italuke]

Wait. With owning that many really nice guitars, you're saying this is the first time you've had a guitar set up?

(Scratches head...)

[Dru Edwards]

Originally Posted by TomB'sox

I am sorry you are having issues, but to be honest, blaming the shop seems wrong to me. If I went in and asked them for a specific string height and they gave it to me and now it buzzed, I would blame myself. They did what you asked them to do initially and from there all the rest was to try and fix what you had asked them to do. Most people who ask for a specific set-up like that are pretty set in their ways and that is what they want. If they had refused to do it, the complaint may have been hey don't go in there, they will not even help me.

Go to another good shop, tell them you have a buzz from too low of action and let them work on it. Don't tell them you think you need a new saddle or the truss rod adjusted or sanding done, just let them do what they are trained to do and fix your guitar. Nothing wrong with saying, I would like the lowest action I can get without buzzing.

All of this is my opinion of course.

+1 - I like the idea of taking it to another shop, tell them what your problem is with the guitar and let them come up with a solution.

[ship of fools]

You should never use the internet as a guide to any guitar set up. Instead what might have been the best way was to go into the shop and talk to them first about concerns or wants and that way you can both be on the same page and have a clear meeting of the minds.
Unfortunately for you the shop did exactly what you wanted and it didn't work out so you are in a hard place to blame them for what you asked for.
You are now going to have to spend a bit more to have it corrected at your expense and while that sucks you have to work with the shops to find that happy medium of what you are looking for.
Its a rookie mistake but hey we all make those boo boo's in life just mark this down as a great learning curve and remember the guitar can be fixed but next time ask a lot of questions if you don't know or are unsure of and PLEASE do not use the internet as your guide to any guitar.
plenty of help right here on this forum

[tadol]

First - understand that what you want is far more important than what the Internet says is best - so, starting from there -

There are numerous good resources you should read to understand how the different parts of a set-up work together, some referenced above. You say this shop has great reviews, so I’ll assume that they have the frets nicely done, and hopefully the nut properly set. So, start by checking relief, which is very easily done, and adjust that appropriately. Play the guitar - does your playing style still give you buzzing? Try cutting a shim from a business card, the same width and length as your saddle, loosen the strings, and slide it under the saddle, tune up and try it. You can do this a few times until you get the lack of buzzing you want - just make sure you don’t end up raising the saddle so much that it isn’t being properly secured in the bridge. Don’t worry about loss of tone, or anything else, this is about buzzing. Once you find the height you want, pull out all the shims and measure them ( or tape them together and let your tech measure them ) and have the shop make a new saddle that matches your existing saddle plus your shims. Or, cut a good shim from some bone or ebony or rosewood, and solidly glue it to the bottom of your existing saddle. As long as you don’t have too much saddle extending above the bridge, you should be good.

I would never make major or radical changes to a set-up - I think you’re much better off identifying problems, and then moving things in the direction you want them to go, and playing with those settings for a bit, and then decide if you need to do just a little bit more. Its So much easier to take a tiny bit more off, than it is to add a tiny bit more on -

[justonwo]

This is all on you, I’m afraid.

1) The shop told you the action was fine. To counter, you show him an internet search. The action specs you gave him are insanely low.

2) And, of course, after they lower the action to that ridiculous level it buzzes. Not surprising at all.

3) To improve things, they suggest leveling the frets with Plek. That’s actually a great idea if the frets aren’t level. If you want the least amount of buzzing, a Plek is the best you can do.

4) Then you still aren’t happy after the Plek because you want electric guitar-like action with no buzzing. You’re asking for the impossible. If you want no buzz at all with a hard attack, you need to be around 0.100”/0.070” and about 0.006” relief.

The shop did everything right. This is a case of a poorly educated consumer demanding what can’t be done.

[Scotso]

Originally Posted by goodry

....
but feel taken advantage of - at this point, what would you guys do - would you go back and expect them to work on it until it didn't buzz, would you accept paying another $100 for a new bridge to raise the action or would you just go to a different shop all together

I hope you mean saddle and not bridge. And I have never paid anywhere near 100 for a new bone saddle, fitted and intonated. Please go another another shop. I think you have caused a lot of these probs yourself due to your specs but I also think this store has shorn your sheep fleece a bit as well(like not telling you that your action is so low that a PLEK may not help etc)

[jwhelan56]

I live in the DFW area, and I am 99.9% sure of which shop you speak of without naming names............

I have taken quite a few acoustics there for setups, and all have come back great. Of course I didn't give them specifics of how to set it up, just set it up to where it intonates correctly, and the action is low enough to be comfortable to play but not low enough to have issues with buzzing. I pretty much play a strumming style or some flatpicking and have not had issues.

I have a high end custom build guitar in what I believe is the same shop right now for a refret with Gold EVO fret wire and a Plek job. The guitar is now approx. 22 years old and has never been refretted. I am excited to see how it turns out.

Sorry you had a bad experience......as others have noted, I think at least some of this is on you. The people in this shop have always been professional, courteous, and done great work for me.

Hope this all turns out OK for you.

[hubcapsc]

I recently got a hd-28 - a "bluegrass guitar" - it seems great in
every way, except its former owner had it set up to "play as easily
as possible". I think it is buzzy, and when I can get it in to the luthier
(that line of work seems to be one of the ones that's slammed busy
because of the cooties) I won't be surprised if he has to change the
saddle and the nut (slots are probably filed too deep) and maybe
fiddle with the truss rod. But my guitar (and almost certainly the OP's)
can be made right by a good set up that gets the strings high enough
not to buzz.

That plek machine bidness ( https://www.sweetwater.com/shop/guitars/plek/index.php )
probably got the OP's frets all right relative to each other... if the guitar is
old and the frets were worn, I'd guess there might be some refretting involved
in getting the guitar right again... ?

-Mike

[Scotso]

Originally Posted by hubcapsc

That plek machine bidness ( https://www.sweetwater.com/shop/guitars/plek/index.php )
probably got the OP's frets all right relative to each other... if the guitar is
old and the frets were worn, I'd guess there might be some refretting involved
in getting the guitar right again... ?

-Mike

Bingo and Guilds have fairly small frets to start. PLEK is a big hammer best used on new guitars. Maybe it is better than I remember but I have never had a luthier ever consider it on an old acoustic. Guys like Kimsey and the guy I use would rather replace low frets rather than file all the others down

[geoawelch]

Originally Posted by Scotso

Bingo and Guilds have fairly small frets to start. PLEK is a big hammer best used on new guitars. Maybe it is better than I remember but I have never had a luthier ever consider it on an old acoustic. Guys like Kimsey and the guy I use would rather replace low frets rather than file all the others down

TJ Thompson, as fine a luthier as there is and someone who has repaired/restored more vintage Martins than anyone in the world uses a PLEK.

[MartinGibsonFan]

Having PLEK done on a guitar (9 years old) ?

I would have raised my eyebrows if that would have been offered, and probably refused.

PLEK is more for guitars fresh out of the factory?

Can you distinguish and program a PLEK machine based on manufacturer? Gibson, Guild, Martin.

I'm assuming none would be identical.

I guess, PLEK has been around for quite some time (1990) but I'd rather have an old fashioned set up on an older guitar with all the changes when new.

My 2 cents and Humble Opinion

MGF

[Scotso]

Originally Posted by geoawelch

TJ Thompson, as fine a luthier as there is and someone who has repaired/restored more vintage Martins than anyone in the world uses a PLEK.

Funny, I spoke to him about an old guitar I own and he said he only uses PLEK on new refrets as it is a time saver but not otherwise. That was a while ago so I may be mistaken as per his latest thinking. I would have run from any shop that told me to plek an old acoustic w/o measuring the heights of the low frets to see where we would end up overall...as in would the guitar still have reasonably sized frets at the end of the plek. The OP indicated that the frets were merely rockered and not measured for height.

[rokdog49]

My J45 is right at 3/32.
I got away with a wee bit lower on the D18.
Both play remarkably well and easily with no buzzing even on hard strumming. The J45 is a dream to play...shorter scale and all.
I’m a strummer and flatpicker.
I did my own setups because if one takes your time, has the basic tools and does it in steps, you can get to Nirvana in ease of play.
I agree with the consensus. Anything lower...probably not good..