Long read - Pretty Frustrated with 5 star "go to" shop -

[goodry]

I live in the dallas area, for the sake of the shop and because I haven't had the chance for them to make it 100% right, i'll keep their name omitted for now... but, on google, reverb, yelp, everywhere ... they are 5 stars over thousands of reviews (or hundreds in the case of google) or 4.8, you know what I'm saying - I searched their google rating, there was 1 1 star rating, and 1 4 star rating, the rest were all 5 stars.

So, needless to say, from reviews and anecdotal experience - this place seemed amazing. I'll say before having them work on my guitar, I loved going in there, Never pressured you, let you play the $10,000 martins without saying a word, great place to a\b or just play with the toys you cant afford...

I had spoken in a previous post that I picked up a 2011 Guild D50 Bluegrass.

Adirondack over rosewood - Dtar pickup

I felt the action was too high, I googled what 'low' action is considered for an acoustic guitar, I did not know this answer - nor, what I prefered to be low action ... so what I came up with was:

at the 12th fret - from this website - https://www.guitaranswerguy.com/guit...string-height/

Low E: 2.0mm (0.079”)
High E: 1.5mm (0.059”)

I took it to the tech, he said he didn't feel the action was high, that it was perfect for a bluegrass player, but, he could in fact bring the action to that spec.... I showed him the spec on the phone and explained I had googled this... Maybe laying out the fact that I really didn't know much about action or that maybe I was a mark or something along those lines - I go play the expensive stuff while he lowers the action, he gives it back to me, i play it for 30 seconds, it's like a beehive -- buzzing all over the fretboard - I bring it back, ask him if he hears the buzz ... he says he doesn't, WTF. Ok, he plays it and then is like, yeah - I hear it ... So, the next thing .. we take a flat edge, what looked to me like a carpenter's square.. and he shows me that from fret to fret, they are unlevel -

BUT WAIT! We can solve this - we have a Plek machine. Ok. Does Not charge me for the setup - we Plek it for $230.

I go to pick it up today, hit the low e string, immediately, still buzzes ...... the original tech notices it and says he wants to play with it a bit.. the owner of the shop messes with it a bit, plays with the truss and get's some of the buzz out.... plays some pretty fingerpicking and says "You're just going to be strumming on this anyways aren't you?" which I took as, you're new, you wont be doing anything fancy, I can leave this and you wont know the difference .. Also, It shouldn't matter what I want to do with the guitar, I could expect that I am going to train a chimp to play, the fact is, it shouldn't buzz no matter what style I play or how I play it, within reason..... we're in a loud shop, I should have played it there but I wait till I get home. While i'm there the initial guy goes "It's a misnomer that there wont be ANY buzz anywhere on a guitar" and "I have to really hit it with a hard attack to get it to buzz" ... I don't feel it should buzz at all, Also, It's an adirondack top - you have to hit it a little harder because of the stiffness of the wood to get it to do its thing - I should have taken that for, your guitar is going to buzz, you just have to deal with it.

Meanwhile, when we were first talking, before he even began working on it, i ask if it ends up being too low, can we do anything, he says he can shim it or something along those line OR - he said a new bridge would have been $100 - Yes, I admit - I brought him the spec, he did exactly what I asked for, but, In a way, I cant help feel a little bit bitter - If I go to my mechanic, and tell him, I want square wheels on my car - because im coming to the mechanic, there is an obvious lack of knowledge, which is why i'm there, I expect my mechanic to say, that's not a good idea, we shouldn't put square wheels on the vehicle ...... I expect the same if I come in, give you a guitar, you're a pro, you say it's fine and I ask you to do something I read off the internet that you think wont be fine but do it anyways.. he didn't say either way, he just did what I asked.... I kind of feel like he should have A. recommended a higher action or B. AFTER it buzzed after the setup, recommended a new bridge at $100 instead of the Plek at $250. I feel like I was a mark.

I get the thing home and its noticeably buzzy - just to make sure im not picking up anything because im upset .... I play the exact same song on 2 different guitars for my girlfriend, the d50 which was just plek'd and a d-150ce which has never been setup .. Girlfriend has been a pianist for years and was in touring choir \ plays \ musicals, etc ... she has an ear for music just doesn't play guitar...... I ask if she notices anything different after I A\B the guitars with the same song and immediately, first thing she says is the one (guild d50) is twangy and buzzy and has a harsh pinging noise on the higher frets - which is true, the lower frets and open strings sound just fine .. but at about the .. 7th fret on the D string up and various spots on other strings .. it get's unbearably buzzy and harsh ... noticeably.

I cant help but feel taken advantage of - at this point, what would you guys do - would you go back and expect them to work on it until it didn't buzz, would you accept paying another $100 for a new bridge to raise the action or would you just go to a different shop all together?

Thanks for listening to me vent - this is my first guitar i've been REALLY excited about and my most expensive purchase to date - so the dissatisfaction is amplified.

[Brucebubs]

OK, so firstly, I think it is all perfectly fixable.
The string height figures you asked for seem very low to me, not unachievable, but too low for me.
I must say I'm surprised that with all those guitars in your signature that there isn't one with your favorite string-height?
One you feel fits you best?
Most comfortable to play?
That's the guitar you should have taken your measurements from - or even better, taken it with you and asked to have your Guild D-50 set up to match.
I've done this myself and had great success.

I set my guitars around 2.25mm 6E 12th fret.



You don't change the bridge for string height, you raise or lower the saddle that sits in the bridge.
I think you just need a new saddle - not a fan of shimming myself - don't like the idea of extra material sitting between the saddle and the bridge and maybe robbing tone.

I'd take it to someone else, not the store that gave it back to you still buzzing.

[pagedr]

I don’t think it’s realistic to expect no fret buzz if you are setting action that low even with a PLEK/fret leveling. That’s definitely very low, I like low action but like Brucebubs that would be too low for me. It doesn’t sound like the shop did a very good job of counseling you on the pros/cons of action that low before performing the work either which is annoying. But yeah it’s definitely important to know how you want your guitar set up because there are a lot of shops/techs out there who will just pretty much do whatever you tell them because from their standpoint, they assume you know what you want and don’t want to put in the extra effort to counsel you.

I would just take the guitar to a different shop and have them install a new saddle that’s slightly higher. Somewhere around 3/32” at the 12th fret should get you around where you want, but I would say take some measurements on your other guitars to find the height that works best for you.

[goodry]

Originally Posted by Brucebubs

OK, so firstly, I think it is all perfectly fixable.
The string height figures you asked for seem very low to me, not unachievable, but too low for me.
I must say I'm surprised that with all those guitars in your signature that there isn't one with your favorite string-height?
One you feel fits you best?
Most comfortable to play?
That's the guitar you should have taken your measurements from - or even better, taken it with you and asked to have your Guild D-50 set up to match.
I've done this myself and had great success.

I set my guitars around 2.25mm 6E 12th fret.



You don't change the bridge for string height, you raise or lower the saddle that sits in the bridge.
I think you just need a new saddle - not a fan of shimming myself - don't like the idea of extra material sitting between the saddle and the bridge and maybe robbing tone.

I'd take it to someone else, not the store that gave it back to you still buzzing.

I should have done that, went off a string height of a guitar I already had - but I went off of what I read was low, this was the first and only time id had a guitar set up and I figured i'd give that a shot and i assumed that if it was way too low, they would tell me so. Im sorry, I said bridge when I meant saddle - he said it would be $100 for a new saddle which I really think should have been done instead of the Plek.

Is the 2.25mm the same at the high e, 1E ?

[goodry]

Originally Posted by pagedr

I don’t think it’s realistic to expect no fret buzz if you are setting action that low even with a PLEK/fret leveling. That’s definitely very low, I like low action but like Brucebubs that would be too low for me. It doesn’t sound like the shop did a very good job of counseling you on the pros/cons of action that low before performing the work either which is annoying. But yeah it’s definitely important to know how you want your guitar set up because there are a lot of shops/techs out there who will just pretty much do whatever you tell them because from their standpoint, they assume you know what you want and don’t want to put in the extra effort to counsel you.

I would just take the guitar to a different shop and have them install a new saddle that’s slightly higher. Somewhere around 3/32” at the 12th fret should get you around where you want, but I would say take some measurements on your other guitars to find the height that works best for you.

That's good advice - to take some measurements - So, you said you like low action .. what is your definition of low at high and low E at 12th fret ? do you have all your guitars set the same way ?

[JayBee1404]

I’d find an action as low as 0.079” and 0.059” pretty much unplayable.

I shoot for 3/32” (0.094”) and 5/64” (0.078”) with ~0.006” of relief, using Mediums 13-56 or Lights 12-54. That’s as low as I’d choose to go - comfortable to play, good volume and tone, no buzzing unless I dig in really hard.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

[pagedr]

Originally Posted by goodry

That's good advice - to take some measurements - So, you said you like low action .. what is your definition of low at high and low E at 12th fret ? do you have all your guitars set the same way ?

I set all my guitars to 3/32" at the low E, ~2/32" at the high E. It's taken some trial and error but those are the heights I've come to find I like best. Obviously everyone is different and it depends on how you play your guitars too. I also agree with your above post that they should've just raised the action with a new saddle instead of doing a PLEK. Not sure if they were trying to rip you off or not, but I have to imagine they knew it wouldn't be possible to eliminate ALL buzzing with action that low.

Brucebubs posted a great picture showing how you can measure the action on your guitars with a straight edge. You can also buy something like this off of Amazon or any music site that'll easily give you measurements: https://www.amazon.com/String-Action...8171053&sr=8-5

[Scotso]

go to a different shop. Just tell em guitar is buzzy and let them figure out how to fix. My guess is guitar has too much relief right now and action that is too low. You may also have a nut prob if it buzzes on open strings. Let a good repair person do their thing.

PS- If you recall a number of folks in the original thread suggested getting the action correct before deciding on a PLEK . If there is no buzzing at the right actions a fret level would be unneeded. I was doubtful when their go to solution was a PLEK. PLek is fine for new guitar but find it is expensive solution looking for a problem in older guitars. A level job with a sanding beam, crown and polish works wonders when done by someone who knows what they are doing. And is cheaper

[Rpt50]

It's time to learn to do some of these things yourself. This is a great opportunity since a lot of the work has already been done. Buy a new saddle and compare it to the one in the guitar. Sand the new one down until it works for you. I'm sure there's a ton of videos on how to sand the saddle properly, but in short you just need a flat surface (e.g., plate of glass). Put the sandpaper on that and rub the saddle on the sand paper.

[Silly Moustache]

Originally Posted by goodry

I live in the dallas area, for the sake of the shop and because I haven't had the chance for them to make it 100% right, i'll keep their name omitted for now... but, on google, reverb, yelp, everywhere ... they are 5 stars over thousands of reviews (or hundreds in the case of google) or 4.8, you know what I'm saying - I searched their google rating, there was 1 1 star rating, and 1 4 star rating, the rest were all 5 stars.

So, needless to say, from reviews and anecdotal experience - this place seemed amazing. I'll say before having them work on my guitar, I loved going in there, Never pressured you, let you play the $10,000 martins without saying a word, great place to a\b or just play with the toys you cant afford...

I had spoken in a previous post that I picked up a 2011 Guild D50 Bluegrass.

Adirondack over rosewood - Dtar pickup

I felt the action was too high, I googled what 'low' action is considered for an acoustic guitar, I did not know this answer - nor, what I prefered to be low action ... so what I came up with was:

at the 12th fret - from this website - https://www.guitaranswerguy.com/guit...string-height/

Low E: 2.0mm (0.079”)
High E: 1.5mm (0.059”)

I took it to the tech, he said he didn't feel the action was high, that it was perfect for a bluegrass player, but, he could in fact bring the action to that spec.... I showed him the spec on the phone and explained I had googled this... Maybe laying out the fact that I really didn't know much about action or that maybe I was a mark or something along those lines - I go play the expensive stuff while he lowers the action, he gives it back to me, i play it for 30 seconds, it's like a beehive -- buzzing all over the fretboard - I bring it back, ask him if he hears the buzz ... he says he doesn't, WTF. Ok, he plays it and then is like, yeah - I hear it ... So, the next thing .. we take a flat edge, what looked to me like a carpenter's square.. and he shows me that from fret to fret, they are unlevel -

BUT WAIT! We can solve this - we have a Plek machine. Ok. Does Not charge me for the setup - we Plek it for $230.

I go to pick it up today, hit the low e string, immediately, still buzzes ...... the original tech notices it and says he wants to play with it a bit.. the owner of the shop messes with it a bit, plays with the truss and get's some of the buzz out.... plays some pretty fingerpicking and says "You're just going to be strumming on this anyways aren't you?" which I took as, you're new, you wont be doing anything fancy, I can leave this F'd up and you wont know the difference .. Also, It shouldn't matter what I want to do with the guitar, I could expect that I am going to train a chimp to play, the fact is, it shouldn't buzz no matter what style I play or how I play it, within reason..... we're in a loud shop, I should have played it there but I wait till I get home. While i'm there the initial guy goes "It's a misnomer that there wont be ANY buzz anywhere on a guitar" and "I have to really hit it with a hard attack to get it to buzz" ... I don't feel it should buzz at all, Also, It's an adirondack top - you have to hit it a little harder because of the stiffness of the wood to get it to do its thing - I should have taken that for, your guitar is going to buzz, you just have to deal with it.

Meanwhile, when we were first talking, before he even began working on it, i ask if it ends up being too low, can we do anything, he says he can shim it or something along those line OR - he said a new bridge would have been $100 - Yes, I admit - I brought him the spec, he did exactly what I asked for, but, In a way, I cant help feel a little bit bitter - If I go to my mechanic, and tell him, I want square wheels on my car - because im coming to the mechanic, there is an obvious lack of knowledge, which is why i'm there, I expect my mechanic to say, that's not a good idea, we shouldn't put square wheels on the vehicle ...... I expect the same if I come in, give you a guitar, you're a pro, you say it's fine and I ask you to do something I read off the internet that you think wont be fine but do it anyways.. he didn't say either way, he just did what I asked.... I kind of feel like he should have A. recommended a higher action or B. AFTER it buzzed after the setup, recommended a new bridge at $100 instead of the Plek at $250. I feel like I was a mark.

I get the thing home and its noticeably buzzy - just to make sure im not picking up anything because im upset .... I play the exact same song on 2 different guitars for my girlfriend, the d50 which was just plek'd and a d-150ce which has never been setup .. Girlfriend has been a pianist for years and was in touring choir \ plays \ musicals, etc ... she has an ear for music just doesn't play guitar...... I ask if she notices anything different after I A\B the guitars with the same song and immediately, first thing she says is the one (guild d50) is twangy and buzzy and has a harsh pinging noise on the higher frets - which is true, the lower frets and open strings sound just fine .. but at about the .. 7th fret on the D string up and various spots on other strings .. it get's unbearably buzzy and harsh ... noticeably.

I cant help but feel taken advantage of - at this point, what would you guys do - would you go back and expect them to work on it until it didn't buzz, would you accept paying another $100 for a new bridge to raise the action or would you just go to a different shop all together?

Thanks for listening to me vent - this is my first guitar i've been REALLY excited about and my most expensive purchase to date - so the dissatisfaction is amplified.

So, you bought a Guild dreadnought. D50.
The dreadnought that is called by the builder as a "bluegrass" guitar.

And you want an action of .079" on bass and.059" on treble.

1st question - WHY?
What sort of music are you tending to play on a guitar specified as a flat picking rhythm style guitar?

You say is buzzes - yes, of course.
You don't say what gauge strings you have on it, but medium gauge would be appropriate.
You don't say what relief it has or you prefer.

I play Collings guitars which have a factory setting of 3/32 and 2/32" (.093 and .062)
I prefer .100 to .080 minimum - on ALL my guitars whether large or small and whether wearing mediums or lights (minimum) and wih a slightly higher relief than their specified .005" - more like .008.

I can't imagine any dreadnought being played without buzzing at the specs that you mention.

I suggest that you review this with a mentor or two.

[rmp]

Originally Posted by JayBee1404

I shoot for 3/32” (0.094”) and 5/64” (0.078”) with ~0.006” of relief, using Mediums 13-56 or Lights 12-54. That’s as low as I’d choose to go - comfortable to play, good volume and tone, no buzzing unless I dig in really hard.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.

This.... I use lights. I have 6 acoustics, one of the is a 12 string, action on all is riding right about there.

[TomB'sox]

I am sorry you are having issues, but to be honest, blaming the shop seems wrong to me. If I went in and asked them for a specific string height and they gave it to me and now it buzzed, I would blame myself. They did what you asked them to do initially and from there all the rest was to try and fix what you had asked them to do. Most people who ask for a specific set-up like that are pretty set in their ways and that is what they want. If they had refused to do it, the complaint may have been hey don't go in there, they will not even help me.

Go to another good shop, tell them you have a buzz from too low of action and let them work on it. Don't tell them you think you need a new saddle or the truss rod adjusted or sanding done, just let them do what they are trained to do and fix your guitar. Nothing wrong with saying, I would like the lowest action I can get without buzzing.

All of this is my opinion of course.

[Matts67]

In my opinion, once you get below 6/64" or .093" on the low E side, you're playing with fire. Some guitars may not buzz, but most will, at least for the playing style you're describing. My go-to is 4/64" on the high E and 6/64" low E at the 12th fret with minimal neck relief.

[MThomson]

You've repeated a couple of times that you expected them to tell you it was too low. They did. They said your Ashton was fine. You disagreed and showed them Internet information to prove them wrong. And then you're upset with them for not arguing with you. If you put yourself in their shoes, I'm not sure that seems fair.

As others (and the luthier) stated, this is fixable with a new saddle. And the advice to find what you like instead of relying on random info on the Internet is a great idea.

[mikiekimi]

Yeah, this isn’t on the shop.