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Old 06-05-2020, 09:31 PM
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Default What is it with ribbon mics?

I have a Sterling ST170 ribbon and it seems it needs more gain than my small and large condensors. Is this normal?

Now that I have a better room to record in, I'll try close mic'ing it or push up the gain, but it really gets a lot of room when I pushed the gain up in the past.

Ok, its not an expensive mic, but I'd like to use it.

Does it need an additional/better preamp than the Zoom H5? (I tried a cloud lifter, but it was incompatible with the ST170)
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Old 06-05-2020, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TBman View Post
I have a Sterling ST170 ribbon and it seems it needs more gain than my small and large condensors. Is this normal?

Now that I have a better room to record in, I'll try close mic'ing it or push up the gain, but it really gets a lot of room when I pushed the gain up in the past.

Ok, its not an expensive mic, but I'd like to use it.

Does it need an additional/better preamp than the Zoom H5? (I tried a cloud lifter, but it was incompatible with the ST170)

Ribbon mics have very low output. They need a lot of gain, it's just the way they work, not your mic specifically. That mic is active, meaning it has a built-in preamp, so it actually should have more output than many ribbons. Often for a ribbon mic, you need a high-gain, extra-quiet preamp. I use the AEA RPQ, specifically designed for ribbon mics.

The idea that you get more room as you turn it up is not quite right, tho. Yes, when the gain is down, you get less of everything, guitar, room, noise. When you turn it up, they all come up equally. That's true of any mic. You can only compare how much "room" you get relative to the signal you want. So set the gain to where your guitar is at a reasonable level, say -6db peaks. Now, you can compare "room" sound, noise and so on relative to that.

However, another thing about ribbons is that they are figure-8, which means they pick up equally front and back, so in that respect, you are indeed getting more "room" sound. In poor acoustic environments, directional mics tend to work better, since the don't pick up in other directions. A Figure-8 mic is only a good choice when having some room sound is a good thing.
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Old 06-05-2020, 10:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Doug Young View Post
Ribbon mics have very low output. They need a lot of gain, it's just the way they work, not your mic specifically. That mic is active, meaning it has a built-in preamp, so it actually should have more output than many ribbons. Often for a ribbon mic, you need a high-gain, extra-quiet preamp. I use the AEA RPQ, specifically designed for ribbon mics.

The idea that you get more room as you turn it up is not quite right, tho. Yes, when the gain is down, you get less of everything, guitar, room, noise. When you turn it up, they all come up equally. That's true of any mic. You can only compare how much "room" you get relative to the signal you want. So set the gain to where your guitar is at a reasonable level, say -6db peaks. Now, you can compare "room" sound, noise and so on relative to that.

However, another thing about ribbons is that they are figure-8, which means they pick up equally front and back, so in that respect, you are indeed getting more "room" sound. In poor acoustic environments, directional mics tend to work better, since the don't pick up in other directions. A Figure-8 mic is only a good choice when having some room sound is a good thing.
Ok, thanks Doug. I'll see how it goes then in my "new" room,
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Old 06-05-2020, 10:16 PM
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There are active ribbon mics on the market that don't need the boost, but otherwise, yes, you need quite a bit of gain for a ribbon. If your preamp is too noisy at those higher gain settings, there are devices you can use to add clean gain. I think the two best options are the Cloudlifter and the McBoost. I prefer the latter but you'd do fine with either.

This video compares some of the available options.
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Old 06-05-2020, 10:24 PM
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The ST170 is an active ribbon. It essentially has its own preamp stage that uses phantom power, though it still may be quieter than other mics you have. (About 5db lower than your 2035, if I'm reading the runes correctly).

Passive ribbons have low output and as noted, need a good preamp. They also may be damaged by phantom power. The Cloudlifter actually uses the phantom power for itself, and does not pass it along to the mic (which is assumed to be a passive ribbon). That's why it won't work with your Sterling.

Gobos or absorbers behind the mics (as in the V-shaped "booth" discussed in other threads) can help limit the amount of room picked up by the back side of the fig-8 pattern.
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Old 06-05-2020, 10:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Chipotle View Post
The ST170 is an active ribbon. It essentially has its own preamp stage that uses phantom power, though it still may be quieter than other mics you have. (About 5db lower than your 2035, if I'm reading the runes correctly).

Passive ribbons have low output and as noted, need a good preamp. They also may be damaged by phantom power. The Cloudlifter actually uses the phantom power for itself, and does not pass it along to the mic (which is assumed to be a passive ribbon). That's why it won't work with your Sterling.

Gobos or absorbers behind the mics (as in the V-shaped "booth" discussed in other threads) can help limit the amount of room picked up by the back side of the fig-8 pattern.
The room is the evil in my equation. I'll have to try the mic again in my new set up and see what happens.
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Old 06-05-2020, 11:56 PM
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I've been using The dBooster https://royerlabs.com/dbooster/ with my Royer 121 for mid/side and its been fantastic.
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Old 06-06-2020, 08:05 AM
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I've been using The dBooster https://royerlabs.com/dbooster/ with my Royer 121 for mid/side and its been fantastic.
Thanks! I'm going to experiment with mid/side.
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Old 06-06-2020, 10:52 AM
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I've been using The dBooster https://royerlabs.com/dbooster/ with my Royer 121 for mid/side and its been fantastic.
None of these ribbon boosters will help TBman with his active Sterling ST170. The ST170 requires phantom power, and has a built-in preamp section, although the output still isn't as hot as his condensers.

You'd need a regular pre-amp or channel strip to boost the ST170. That said, any pre-amp will boost your signal, noise and room equally. So if you are still getting enough input to record with the Sterling (what are your recording levels showing?), you can simply increase the gain digitally in post and and have the same effect as a "transparent preamp".
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Old 06-06-2020, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipotle View Post
None of these ribbon boosters will help TBman with his active Sterling ST170. The ST170 requires phantom power, and has a built-in preamp section, although the output still isn't as hot as his condensers.

You'd need a regular pre-amp or channel strip to boost the ST170. That said, any pre-amp will boost your signal, noise and room equally. So if you are still getting enough input to record with the Sterling (what are your recording levels showing?), you can simply increase the gain digitally in post and and have the same effect as a "transparent preamp".
That's what I was thinking. I'll just boost the input gain or pump it up afterwards.

I'm curious to see what mid side recording has to offer me, if any thing. I have a suspicion that the room has to be better than what I have to reap any benefit, but we'll see. I'll have to read up on the differences between mid/side and a spaced pair.
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Old 06-06-2020, 12:31 PM
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I'm curious to see what mid side recording has to offer me, if any thing. I have a suspicion that the room has to be better than what I have to reap any benefit, but we'll see. I'll have to read up on the differences between mid/side and a spaced pair.
It's just a different mic placement technique, Barry. It is especially beneficial if you want to be able to adjust the stereo image after the fact, any where from mono to ultra-wide. You can get an extremely wide stereo image (Eric does this) that would normally be a bit problematic, while still being completely mono-compatible - which isn't the case with spaced pairs. For solo guitar, it also just has a nice "centered" quality to it, while still being spacious.

If you haven't seen it, I go thru the process and maybe talk about "why" (I forget) here:

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Old 06-06-2020, 01:19 PM
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...However, another thing about ribbons is that they are figure-8, which means they pick up equally front and back, so in that respect, you are indeed getting more "room" sound. In poor acoustic environments, directional mics tend to work better, since the don't pick up in other directions...
Just for clarity, fig-8 mics are directional (bi-directional).

But yes, they pick up more room.

I've had luck with them on acoustic guitar by angling them sideways so the lobes are left/right instead of back/front.
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Old 06-06-2020, 01:26 PM
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Just for clarity, fig-8 mics are directional (bi-directional).

But yes, they pick up more room.

I've had luck with them on acoustic guitar by angling them sideways so the lobes are left/right instead of back/front.

Yeah, I have said "uni-directional". Aiming them left right, when combined with a mono (mid) mic and the proper processing gives you mid-side.
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Old 06-06-2020, 03:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chipotle View Post
None of these ribbon boosters will help TBman with his active Sterling ST170. The ST170 requires phantom power, and has a built-in preamp section, although the output still isn't as hot as his condensers.

You'd need a regular pre-amp or channel strip to boost the ST170. That said, any pre-amp will boost your signal, noise and room equally. So if you are still getting enough input to record with the Sterling (what are your recording levels showing?), you can simply increase the gain digitally in post and and have the same effect as a "transparent preamp".
Yes my AEA N22's are also phantom powered ribbons and I agree even going into my mic pre with (60 db gain) they take more gain to get to the same level, as my Condenser mic,s


Quote:
DukeX
I've had luck with them on acoustic guitar by angling them sideways so the lobes are left/right instead of back/front.
That is interesting but that would seem to place the nulls facing the guitar and rely more on off axis response ... I will have to try that. I have always pointed them front/back thinking that the null facing each other might give a bit more stereo separation ??
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Old 06-06-2020, 04:25 PM
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The null probably helps stereo separation when used in Blumlein. What I do with MS is place the side mic right in front of the soundhole, so the null is basically aimed at the soundhole, eliminating the boom you'd normally get, and letting the lobes cover the body of the guitar left and right. Then the mid mic goes up higher, above the waist, where you won't get the soundhole boom. With long mics like the N22s, this just works out fairly naturally. It seems to give a nice, direct sound, especially with the N22s being able to be placed so close.

I guess using a figure 8 as a single mono mic like that does end up just being all off-axis response, with the null avoiding the soundhole boom as well. Seems like you'd lose a bit, since just like the side mic in MS, you'd be down 6db or more with most mics. I never record in mono, but it seems worth a try if you do. Or maybe I'm not understanding what's being suggested.
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