Saddle Height Puzzlement. Martin 000-15SM

[m-w-d]

I just acquired a Martin 000-15SM that was manufactured early in 2013. The action and saddle were very high for my comfort. Yet the neck looks to have a proper trueness with no red flag bow or warp. I started shaving the bottom of the saddle to improve string height trying to achieve about a quarters width (coin) at the 12th fret. In the process I got the treble side spot on and decided to reattempt the bass string side. I did in fact get both sides about a quarters width at the 12th and it plays much better. My problem is this.

1/2 and 6 strings are perfect but on this saddle design the 3/4/5 dip even lower. I feel I sanded the saddle about 1 hair too much because normal finger picking is no issue. If I pluck a little harder I get a very slight buzz on 4/5 strings at around the 7th fret.

Next the saddle now sits terribly low. I can see I have almost nil for a break angle. At this point if I have screwed up then I've screwed up a replaceable saddle. I'm asking for help on how to approach this before going further. Like I said the neck angle and trueness looks fine.

[heavyg]

you need to get a new saddle and have a luthier install one proper. there's lot of good info out there on guitar setup....:

I'm not sure what makes you think the "neck angle and trueness looks fine". By definition, if your saddle has to be that low to achieve the action you want, the neck angle needs to be changed, which means a neck reset. In this case, the bridge might be overly thick, so shaving the bridge might be a better approach.

Before doing that, have you actually measured the relief? I suspect that is what you mean by "trueness" but I'm not certain.

A quarter is about 0.070" thick. That's very low action on the bass strings, too low for most people.

If strings 3, 4, and 5 are lower than 1 & 2, you need to start over with a new saddle.

[m-w-d]

Thank you guys for the responses. Todd, while I would never say never I had a hard time absorbing that a Martin that was less than a year old would need a neck reset or a bridge shave. Unfortunately since my best friend passed in 05' I don't have access to a a luthier for hundreds of miles from me. I've always had excellent results setting up my electrics for over 40 years but I'm new to acoustic setup and obviously I'm not faring well.

I haven't taken any 'official' measurements on the relief but rather just commenting that nothing appears problematic as to excessive bowing, warping or twisting of the neck. Could you share your process for checking relief with your recommended specs? thanks again.

[Ned Milburn]

As Todd says, your neck truss rod needs to be set properly before determining if a neck reset is necessary.

It is impossible to tell you if your saddle profile on top is correct or incorrect without proper measurements for 12th fret action on each string (presuming the nut and truss are adjusted properly).

It looks like the bridge is high enough that it could be shaved a mm or two without problem. Also, "string ramps" can be cut into the bridge to give more break angle for the strings across the saddle.

A quarter's height for action is likely lower than ideal on a steel string guitar. For low action on steel strings, I usually set it no lower than 1.75mm (high E) and 2.25mm or so for the low E. Measure from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string. (I've never measured an American quarter, or Canadian quarter for that matter, so I can't comment precisely on those for markers.)

[Roselynne]

When I took my slightly used 2011 000-15SM in for its setup and well-baby check, it needed a small truss rod adjustment (not a neck reset), and an ever-so-sliiight saddle shave (not a bridge shave).

To my surprise, my 2012 00-15M, bought new, needed an even greater degree of truss-rod adjustment.

With both it was a real shock, because the 00 seemed perfectly playable to me, and the 000 only moderately less so. Both now play like dreams!

The tech was way less surprised than I was about both issues. He complimented me on my primitive humidifying skills and general care-and-feeding, so I guess it wasn't anything I did. I don't know if this is a Martin issue, or a storage/shipping issue, or what.

I am far, far too cowardly to do my own setups (embarrassing, really), but I have found a couple of good techs out my way for those times when I need to do anything tetchier than a string change.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by m-w-d

I'm asking for help on how to approach this before going further.

Basic Guitar Setup 101: http://charlestauber.com/luthier/Resources.html

[dwstout]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Basic Guitar Setup 101: http://charlestauber.com/luthier/Resources.html

WOW - What a great article!! - Thanks for putting that together! I've been playing for 43 years and I've never had a guitar setup after purchase. All 4 of my current guitars were well setup (by Elderly and Artisan Guitars) when bought, but now I'm thinking they could all do with a service.

[Halcyon/Tinker]

You can put a shim under the existing saddle without having to get a new one.

[charlesa]

You can buy saddle blanks on eBay for a couple of bucks. If you've got a vise, a file and some sandpaper, you can make saddles in a few minutes. It's easier to make a new one than make a shim for one, as a matter of fact.

[murrmac123]

Originally Posted by charlesa

. It's easier to make a new one than make a shim for one, as a matter of fact.

You're kidding, right ?

Sliver of ebony (or rosewood) veneer , squirt of thin CA, press together, job done.

Especially when the saddle is already intonated, as is the case with the OP's guitar.

[rick-slo]

Unusual saddle top contour. The guitar must have a fairly flat fretboard for that to make any sense.
Easiest solution is a saddle shim although you might first try a very small truss rod tweak (loosen)
and see if that gives satisfactory results.

[murrmac123]

Once again, and it bears repeating once again, the one single crucial measurement in these situations is the distance between the top of the soundboard and the underside of the D string (measured at the bridge) .

If this distance is significantly less than .5" than something needs to be done.

If you want your guitar to play at maximum efficiency, which means regaining that .5" distance, then that "something" is a neck reset ...no alternative.

Sure, you can shave the bridge and shave the saddle, but if you haven't got that .5" distance underneath the D string ...it isn't going to play at its best.

[m-w-d]

I really appreciate the inputs and the article. The saddle is an odd contour and I swear 3/4/5 are lower. I also believe it to be stock but I'm not going to take anything for granted on this guitar anymore. I'm getting a couple of measuring devices and have a fresh look after re-reading all these post and the article posted by Charles.

I suspect the neck needed a slight tighten before I shaved any off any of the saddle and I assumed it didn't. Then I should have stopped shaving a smigeon before I did. I have a few tools and a new saddle on the way as well as a bunch of shim stock from my late friends supplies if that is needed.

Don't get me wrong the guitar plays and sounds fantastic and it plays a ton better than when I got it but I have learned a valuable lesson. Hit, miss, trial and error work fantastic on my electrics. I always get them dialed in and they play like butter. On these acoustics.... not so much. Trial is an error. I've got 5 acoustics to maintain. I'm going to learn this and I really appreciate the help of those more knowledgeable.