Martin Saddle string spacing problem

[Haarnoz]

Hi,
I'm new to the forum. I have some questions about a newly acquired old guitar, that I hope you can help answer.

I recently bought a Martin DM. The guitar was flawless, no dings, no wear. It looked like someone played it for an hour, then put it back in the case 8 - 10 years ago. The B string was completely black. Other strings also looked old, but unused. No fret wear at all, but the frets had a sort of patina. A brand new looking Martin hard shell case was included. Inside the case was a never opened set of Earnie Ball, custom gauge (10 - 46) slinky electric guitar strings. I couldn't really tell what the guitar would sound like with strings like that, and had not brought another set of strings with me. But my research online about this model showed in almost every case that this model had a good sound. This particular guitar has a sort of resonance to it, sort of an "echo". Muting the strings, and tapping the body lightly yields a sort of sustained "echo" I hadn't heard on another guitar. So, I bought it!

After I bought the guitar, brought it home, I cleaned up the guitar, and put on a new set of Martin light silk and steel strings. My old fingers are used to playing electric guitar nowadays, and I figured as I build up strength from the acoustic, I'd increase the gauge. Once the new strings were on the guitar it sounded great! But I noticed when replacing the strings, that there were grooves in the saddle, and those grooves were not necessarily in the right places, so by eye, I reckoned where the strings should go that looked a little better.

While practicing, getting my fingers into better shape for acoustic, I noticed there were problems with intonation. Also some small problem with flat picking (which I assumed was my lack of familiarity with this instrument). To ensure proper tuning, I began checking the tuning at the open string and at the 12th fret. Most times, I was able to get the Snark tuner to show mostly green on both positions. However, to my ear, some of the higher fretted notes were out of tune. Sure enough, checking with the Snark, for example, a note at the 8th fret 3rd string might be a couple of "bars" off.
I measured the distances between centers of the bridge pins using a digital caliper, and found they were all about the same: .417". Then using that measurement, compared the space between centers of the strings on the saddles. They were all different, inconsistently different.

I loosened each string, individually, and re-tightened with the string closer to the same distance as the space between the bridge pins using the digital caliper. The problems with intonation, and flat picking are gone. The guitar sounds better than ever!

So, my questions are:
a) could the personnel at the factory be the cause of this unevenness of spacing between strings?
When they strung the guitar for the first time, there might have been a lack of attention, or lack of experience of where the strings sat on the saddle?
I'm used to electric guitars, and never had a problem restringing: the saddles on those are individual and metal.
Even when I played an acoustic guitar 25 years ago, and changed strings, I never paid attention to where the string sat on the saddle, never had a problem.
b) Is this a common problem?
c) is the material, tusq, used for production guitars really so soft that just tightening a string will cause them to groove like that?
d) What should I do for the future restringing? Mark where the strings are now, so they go into exactly the same places?
e) Can/should the ugly extra grooves on the first and second string be filed down?

I think about replacing the tusq saddle with one made of bone, but am not sure. Is bone harder than tusq? Would bone groove like that?

Thanks in advance for your input and advice!

[Haarnoz]

Oops, picture of saddle, didn't come through on post



http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/...ps0e26a336.jpg

[Ned Milburn]

Guitars, even Martins, are sold "unfinished". Specifically, final adjustments of saddle and nut are left to the vendor (if they are responsible vendors) or to the owner to deal with.

Also, as much as some people sing praises of tusq nuts and saddles, it should be remembered that tusq is a brand name for "plastic" - proprietary plastic, yes, but plastic none-the-less.

I have not experienced an instrument that has not had an audible sound improvement when the original tusq saddle has been replaced with a well-made bone saddle - L'Arrives, Taylors, Martins, Seagulls, Yamahas, you name it!

I find it puzzling that you would have experienced better intonation simply by adjusting the saddle string spacing slightly.

I do not use silk&steel strings, nor do most of my clients, so I cannot make a definitive statement. But, I have experienced these strings a few times, and the lesser stiffness may mean that the intonation compensation will be slightly different from the stiffer standard strings.

At any rate, if you got your intonation adjusted properly, that is good.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by Haarnoz

Hi,


So, my questions are:
a) could the personnel at the factory be the cause of this unevenness of spacing between strings?
When they strung the guitar for the first time, there might have been a lack of attention, or lack of experience of where the strings sat on the saddle?
I'm used to electric guitars, and never had a problem restringing: the saddles on those are individual and metal.
Even when I played an acoustic guitar 25 years ago, and changed strings, I never paid attention to where the string sat on the saddle, never had a problem.
b) Is this a common problem?
c) is the material, tusq, used for production guitars really so soft that just tightening a string will cause them to groove like that?
d) What should I do for the future restringing? Mark where the strings are now, so they go into exactly the same places?
e) Can/should the ugly extra grooves on the first and second string be filed down?

I think about replacing the tusq saddle with one made of bone, but am not sure. Is bone harder than tusq? Would bone groove like that?

Thanks in advance for your input and advice!

A. No. If the pins are drilled correctly, it's likely "user error" in the placement of the strings. There isn't a huge breaking angle over the saddle, which reduces downward force on the saddle by the strings, allowing the strings to more easily slide side to side, particularly if using low tension strings.
B. Relatively common.
C. Yes.
D. Sure, that is one option.
E. Yes, but doing so will lower the string height a little.

Bone is harder than Tusq. But it will also wear over time.

As for intonation, looking at the picture, it's pretty likely that the saddle isn't shaped correctly to provide accurate intonation.

[Frank Ford]

In my opinion, the string spacing is a non-issue. First - in either the new or old positions, the strings are spaced close enough to play well. How the nicks were made a few thousandths out of position is immaterial.

Is it a lefty? or is the photo flipped? Regardless, the saddle looks like stock Martin. As to intonation, well, I'd expect it to play more accurately with light or medium acoustic strings. And, I'd want to check the action - it's likely to be time for setup, you know.

Just play the guitar, get used to it, enjoy it, when it's time, get it set up, and you're good to go.

[redir]

I'd suspect that your intonation problems were with the new strings stretching and or not fitted properly to the bridge plate and when you loosened them and brought them back up to pitch the were seated properly and stretched out.

The space between the strings has absolutely nothing to do with the intonation on any human level, I'm sure a mathematician, statistician and physicists could prove otherwise but you would never hear it.

[Haarnoz]

Thank you all very much for your help!

The guitar is, I am a Lefty - for half my life! hehehe
I am ambidextrous, but a childhood injury left me with a loss of 60% rotation in my left wrist. So, to hold the guitar/finger the fretboard,
I have to play lefty.

The purpose of the previously posted picture was to show the grooves and string positions.
These pictures will show the saddle a little better.


http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9ece9e9f.jpg



http://i1274.photobucket.com/albums/...psfc4e7fa1.jpg

The changed position was about a 0.013" difference.

The strings had been on the guitar for 2 - 3 weeks, played 5 to 6 days a week, getting my old fingers back in shape for acoustic.
Wow! I'm getting deep callouses and grooves on my finger tips!
I adjusted the spacing one string at a time, and after the adjustment, played it a little to see if it improved before going to the next string. If you make too many changes at once, and have a problem, you can't know which change made it better or worse. After each adjustment, the guitar sounded better.

From my troubleshooting experiences, I have found that if something doesn't work or work the way it should, try something else. And if that doesn't work, try something else. But don't force things, and don't do something you can't undo. Even so, sometimes, it just won't work. But in this case, I think setting the spacing on the saddle to match the bridge pins was the logical thing to try, and it worked. Logical or illogical, if it helps, makes it better, that is the way to go for me.

Thanks to your advice, I'm going to get a new bone saddle.
Appreciate your help and input!
Great Forum! Lots of knowledgeable, helpful people.

[BB Brown]

I have a DM, real nice guitar. Best thing I ever did was replace the plastic saddle with bone...really love the change.

[Dirty Bill]

Tusq is a very hard material. It's not plastic like at all. I don't know what it's made of though. I have tusq on my Martin,I took the bone saddle out. I kept it though,in case I didn't like the tusq.

Try to trim a piece of tusq with a knife,and you will see how hard it is. I did it on tusq bridge pins,and it very hard compared to plastic bridge pins. Here's the original plastic bridge pins out of my Martin.