#31
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And I hope no one thinks I'm trashing the SoloAmp, because that's not my intent at all.
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#32
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#33
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But I'm assuming that this is a question that has come up multiple times in Bose-land and has been settled with a definitive answer.
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#34
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Even with the Bose Compact being the "winner" in my lil comparison thingy with various musicians including..yes ..me.... I still use the Bose T1 to EQ when playing out as the mid mids are not as strong as the bass and upper stuff. I back the bass and uppers off a bit and add just a hint of mids for keys and acoustic guitar. (A little different for each of course). EQ adjusting on all 3 is helpful for sure. The SoloAmp has the most adjustment on it already so that my move it up a notch for handiness.
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#35
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This has turned into a "definition of a line array" thread. (So what else is new!)
It is VERY CLEAR what the INTENT of the OP is. He's NOT talking about the L1 model 1 or 2. (or is he?) He is including the SoloAmp for discussion so he obviously is including it for discussion in what "he" believes is part of the line array discussions. Or is it that since the BagAmp is the ONLY true line array then he must only be asking about the BagAmp. Right?
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#36
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Bob, you don't have to yell. I have a line array and I can hear you just fine.
I do see your point now, but what you're really talking about is your interpretation of his original question. You said: "...so he obviously is including it for discussion in what "he" believes is part of the line array discussions." Should I keep quiet so that others can assume that any long, rectangular amp is a line array? I've been trying to point out what is and what is not a line array, and what can be expected out of a line array vs. a more traditional amp or speaker. I've been doing that because the OP specifically asked about line arrays vs. small amps. Except for the one post where I stated what I like about the BA's sound, I've purposely stayed away from "this amp sounds better than that amp" type comments. If you want to tell the OP that the SA sounds better than the Ultrasound, or that the Ultrasound sounds better than the SA, go for it.
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#37
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While I have compared the SoloAmp to the Compact side by side, I didn't evaluate their volume drop off with distance. Nevertheless, I'm confident that the Compact qualifies as a line array. Last edited by Herb Hunter; 02-08-2010 at 04:12 PM. Reason: Typographical mistake |
#38
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Aloha Bob! Howzit!!!
Aloha Bob, Eh, Longtime, Brah?
I've been woosheddin' with my recording rig of late, dealing with killer sciatica, & dealing with major time constraints - why I've been MIA. I'll respond to you here even though what I say does not fully address the OP's questions about small amps vs. line arrays. But it's in the ballpark. Apologies guys. Bob, I'm truly sorry to hear about your recent setbacks. Perhaps this planning of a new PA system will cheer you up and help you make a swift comeback. Arming yourself with opinions on these sites is a great idea. However, perhaps it's time for you to take a few trips into the city. Get on that Long Island railroad, get off at Penn Station, and take the 8th Avenue up one stop and walk to West 48th Street to "DA MUSIC MECCA." They have everything in those shops. Spend a few days listening and comparing all the kinds of PA's - small amps, line arrays, small PA's, etc. Let your ears make decisions on the products that these opinions here have helped you to dial in. I have a question, Bob. You're more of an electric guy, right? Then why all the interest in small kine gigging PA's for acoustic guitar? Many here know how I feel about all the line arrays - including the "granddaddy" that Bose LI. They don't work for my purposes or ears. I prefer my Dual source/SPS-1/Daedalus small PA rig because it gives me the sound, control, headroom, flexibility, lack of ear fatigue, and even inspiration to perform at my gigs. I used a Bose L1 for almost two years, once a week in a loud setting and found it did NOT provide the coverage, penetration, feedback control and overall sound that I needed in that noisy wine bar setting. The newest line arrays are finding favor with us now primarily because of their schleppability. I mean, listen to Kramster's samples, right? Yuk! It's because so many acoustic players - my peers - are getting too old to heft larger PA's nightly to and from gigs. Me too - they want to fuse my back right now! So, I only take one Daedalus W-803 to some smaller gigs. But usually I take both, along with my portable rack, stands, etc.. It's worth it to me for my sound & purposes. Regarding smaller amps - or even line arrays - I feel that - FOR ME - a dual speaker source small PA is always the way to go - regardless of room size. I feel that if the owner of that loud bar I played in had bought another Bose L-1, my coverage problems would have been solved. BTW, the Bose L1 offers a great sound in quiet, concert settings. It' just harder to dial in - for me. I think that a smaller amp is fine for small room gigs, as long as it's raised on a stand and you have a slave speaker that's connectable for dual source coverage, IMO. Bob, if you're shopping for the future, then please do yourself a favor & check out Daedalus Speakers. There are so many great choices for PA's from Lou. Sure, a W803 is $1250, but the S-81's are only $655 each., and the very powerful S-82's are only about $750 each. I think a single S-82 would provide better sound quality and coverage in smaller venues than any of the new line arrays or small amps. You do need a preamp or mixer and a power amp for all Daeds, but so what - the sound is worth it to me. So check those out. Guys, I know Daeds are not for everyone and that few have even heard them. Just reminding people that some Daedalus' cost less than some of the new line arrays, that's all. And they sound great by comparison to almost anything. Best I'v ever heard or used. I even use my 803's for recording. So there Bob. I'm not trying to sway you. Just trying to pass aloing what I know, just my opinion. I hope your troubles pass soon. And let your ears make the decision down on 48th St. Eh, What town on LonggggIsland yo leeeve, brah! alohachris |
#39
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Yeah, but wait'll you hear the AC-33... And I LOVE my SoloAmp...
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#40
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I'm not sure what you're taking issue with here. We're sort of saying the same thing. I stated that a minimum of an 8:1 ratio is required to achieve better sound propagation. In other words, that if you were to design a line array system, you'd start with a minimum ratio of 8 to 1. In theory, that would give you sound levels that fall off only half as much as traditional speakers as distance increases. You seem to be saying that an engineer would design a system that exhibits the above type of sound propagation, and if successful, then call it a line array, no matter if the speaker configuration is rectangular and 8 (or more) to 1, or square or even round. I'm saying the speaker configuration is the cause of the line array effect. You seem to be saying that the line array effect causes the speaker configuration. That point's not really worth arguing. I just think one way of stating it is more correct than the other, but it's not a big deal. But you also said: "If a system's horizontal and vertical dispersion are unequal, and the volume drop off is significantly better than that of a conventional speaker system then it can be called a line array." I know that's not right. Did you see that new EV powered cabinet with 90 degree horizontal and 45 degree vertical dispersion? Surely you're not calling the EV powered cabinets line arrays, even though the sound propagation would be better than a 90x90 dispersion pattern?
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#41
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I tried for a while to make some categorical comments about this for some time, but the visual similarity of the SoloAmp to the other products (BagAmp and Bose gear) seems to win the day. They look the same on the outside, so most assume that they must be equivalents, or at least comparable-technology equipment. This simply may not be the case, despite the visual similarities...but it's been a losing battle (in some ways) in trying to make this understood. For me, there was something I wanted explained based on real-world differences (read as : problems) that I had with propagation when concert-testing the SoloAmp. Perhaps it's worth mentioning again that I did not know why, but it was clear to my ears that with the gear behind me, the SoloAmp had to be cranked up to unacceptable stage-volume levels to reach the audience at the same levels as the Bose L1 Model II (which I still own). The SoloAmp went back as unusable for me. An explanation came via Campbell's posts here on the AGF. While there may not be complete agreement as to what constitutes a "true" line array, it was clear that his technical comments specifically addressed my concerns (for my use) with the SA. My experience on-stage with the BagAmp is similar to what I have experienced with my L1, which is great feasibility for the gear being placed behind me to act as an on-stage monitor, and without it being uncomfortably loud on-stage at volumes designed to reach the audience. I believe that all of this equipment is quite well-made, and has good use for a variety of circumstances...and with different performer-preferences in mind. Understanding how the gear differs, and how it might be best utilized will make for happier customers, and better experiences during amplified events/concerts.
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Larry Pattis on Spotify and Pandora LarryPattis.com American Guitar Masters 100 Greatest Acoustic Guitarists Steel-string guitars by Rebecca Urlacher and Simon Fay Classical guitars by Anders Sterner |
#42
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Great Post, Larry
Aloha Larry,
Ol' aloha here. Mahalo for your very well written, informative post as usual. How's everything going in ought 10? Questions? I know you don't play the noisy kinds of venues and crowds I have (no more now if I can help it) you too probably in the past, but what size crowd/venue would you say the BagAmp could handle well? Have you had the chance to use it in a venue with a densely packed crowd in close proximity? What is the ideal setting for using the BagAmp? Where has it worked best for you? Just curious in my ignorance out here. The BA still hasn't arrived in Honolulu. All the best Larry & Keep Pickin' alohachris |
#43
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You did but I missed it.
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I'm saying the speaker configuration is the cause of the line array effect. You seem to be saying that the line array effect causes the speaker configuration.[/QUOTE] No, it goes without saying that a line array would have to have the drivers arranged in a line. Quote:
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#44
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Wow!!! Chris AND Larry join the discussion the same day after not hearing from either for some time now.
I can't understand why everyone just wants to continue to repeat themselves. The very first line of this thread says it all. "I've been following the line array discussions for awhile now and feel I have as good a grip on the different units as I can get without ever really having a chance to hear one" Everyone has heard about a million times the line-array comparisons. The BA is the only true line-array stated by Jack Campbell. The SoloAmp didn't work for Larry because it was too loud right behind him. The Compact is............whatever Hey, I tell you what. I have a question maybe somebody can actually answer here. Listen closely and I'll try to word it best I can. What I don't have a grip on is whether they are "that much better" than, say, a 50-100w Ultrasound amp or similar product that I could pick up new or maybe used for, say, about $400-500. Who's listened to both approaches in a real, live situation? I liked using my Loudbox 100 for awhile, pointed at the back of my head like a cannon as my monitor, but that was a pretty deafening approach, even tho I never really cranked it *that* much. I sold it because I didn't like it's specefic tone, but I could see going that route again. Would standing in front of a SoloAmp etc be *that much* different-- enough to justify, say, it being twice as much as an Ultrasound amp? Any of y'all have real, on the ground, gigging experience comparing the two: small amps vs line array?
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#45
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I'm glad that you have followed the threads (and comments) well enough to know what some of us are going to say, however, if incorrect information is repeated often enough, then the facts can become rather blurry. I like to provide clarity, when possible.
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