too much phantom power?

[dnf777]

Will phantom power harm a pre-amp, eq, or compressor? I'm using two condensers, one through a rack system with the above components, and the second mic directly into the mixer. (Zoom Livetrack-8). Of course, to supply phantom power to the lone mic, all the channels put out 48v when the phantom power on the L8 is active. Will that 48v hurt anything going into the rack system? (before I thought of that, everything seemed to work just fine, with no funny noises, hums, or smoke anywhere). The EQ is a WA-pultec clone, so it does have a tube in it. (no ribbon mics anywhere)

the first mic is getting its voltage from the pre-amp in the rack, a WA-12

thanks,
Dave

[Gordon Currie]

No, it will not hurt those types of equipment.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by dnf777

Will phantom power harm a pre-amp, eq, or compressor? I'm using two condensers, one through a rack system with the above components, and the second mic directly into the mixer. (Zoom Livetrack-8). Of course, to supply phantom power to the lone mic, all the channels put out 48v when the phantom power on the L8 is active. Will that 48v hurt anything going into the rack system? (before I thought of that, everything seemed to work just fine, with no funny noises, hums, or smoke anywhere). The EQ is a WA-pultec clone, so it does have a tube in it. (no ribbon mics anywhere)

the first mic is getting its voltage from the pre-amp in the rack, a WA-12

thanks,
Dave

I am not an electrical engineer But if I am understanding your set up and your question then like Gordon said No no harm ..
My understanding is Phantom Power only travels from the mic -pre phantom power voltage circuit, out to the mic, it does not travel back.

[jjbigfly]

“I am not an electrical engineer But if I am understanding your set up and your question then like Gordon said No no harm ..
My understanding is Phantom Power only travels from the mic -pre phantom power voltage circuit, out to the mic, it does not travel back.
__________________
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev..”

EAXCTLY what I was just commenting in another thread in this section. That was the best description of Phantom power I have seen. Thanks. Dead simple.

Uh…but if it doesn’t come back, where does it go?
Does it turn into high frequencies and go into the corners?

Hahahahahahaha

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by jjbigfly

“I am not an electrical engineer But if I am understanding your set up and your question then like Gordon said No no harm ..
My understanding is Phantom Power only travels from the mic -pre phantom power voltage circuit, out to the mic, it does not travel back.
__________________
Enjoy the Journey.... Kev..”

EAXCTLY what I was just commenting in another thread in this section. That was the best description of Phantom power I have seen. Thanks. Dead simple.

Uh…but if it doesn’t come back, where does it go?
Does it turn into high frequencies and go into the corners?

Hahahahahahaha

Corners ---No like most phantoms it just skulks around the periphery and eventually fades into the ether.

[dnf777]

Originally Posted by KevWind

I am not an electrical engineer But if I am understanding your set up and your question then like Gordon said No no harm ..
My understanding is Phantom Power only travels from the mic -pre phantom power voltage circuit, out to the mic, it does not travel back.

Thanks.

To “get to” the mic, once it leaves the Zoom, theres a pre-amp, compressor, and eq it would “go through”. I was wondering if they could be harmed. Also the pre-amp has phantom power (hmmmm….maybe I should disable that power source and let the mixer power all…)

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by dnf777

Thanks.

To “get to” the mic, once it leaves the Zoom, theres a pre-amp, compressor, and eq it would “go through”. I was wondering if they could be harmed. Also the pre-amp has phantom power (hmmmm….maybe I should disable that power source and let the mixer power all…)

Humm I guess I am confused because you said

I'm using two condensers, one through a rack system with the above components, and the second mic directly into the mixer.

So your OP sounded like you were saying -- one mic cable is connected directly --from the mic to the Zoom ,, And the other mic cable is connected directly --from the other mic to your rack pre amp yes ??

So either I am way confused on what your set up and routing actually are OR am wondering if maybe we are having a simple (signal flow direction) misunderstanding and miscommunication problem ???
So lets start using terms like input and output not "to get to" or "go through"
Because what you are saying about signal flow direction sounds contradictory to me (but then again I am old)



In any case Let's back up a bit maybe ?

*A are you using the Zoom as your interface to the computer ?

*B are you recording using the two condenser mics at the same time or one at time ?

*C and your mic set up is as I mentioned above so , Lets call it your # 1 mic has its mic cable from the mic directly to a Zoom mic input and its mic pre .
*D and your #2 mic has its mic cable from mic directly to your rack mic pre-amp input ? Correct so far ??

* E and the output from your rack gear is also going into a line input on your Zoom -- Yes ? (because it is your interface) yes ?

If the above is all correct,,, then understand the #1 mic connected to the Zoom is not "going through" the rack gear and back to the #1 mic or the #2 mic -- and the (#1) mic's only source of phantom power is from the Zoom ...
And the #2 mic connected to the rack preamp is getting it's phantom power from the rack mic-pre phantom power section and it should remain engaged ,,, And if I am actually understanding your setup ,, you can test this easily,, simply turning the rack pre amp phantom power off,, and the #2 mic will not work

In other words as far as the signal flow,,, it only goes one direction , the signal flows from the mic to the pre- amp (input) then goes through the pre amp circuit, is amplified , and then goes out the pre-amp line (output) and goes to somewhere else.
Agin the audio signal does not and cannot go through a pre amp, compressor, or EQ , into the mic (the only thing that goes from a pre amp to a condenser mic is the phantom power to run it's condenser circuits ,, the audio signal created by the mic, only flows from mic to mic pre-amp and out

So

To “get to” the mic, once it leaves the Zoom, theres a pre-amp, compressor, and eq it would “go through”.

cannot happen for either mic ?

I hope I am making sense ????????????????????????????

[dnf777]

Kev,
Thanks for helping out. I got pulled away from my computer for a while, and don't dare try to type on my phone or pad for any amount of length, or I would have replied sooner. To run through and answer:

A: no. no DAW on this project. recording tracks directly to SD card in the Zoom, and may load them into Reaper later.

B: yes, both mics at the same time

C and D: yes, that is correct.

E: correct, the rack system is running into the Zoom as well, but again, to record to SD card, no interfacing to computer right now.

I think all is good. And yes, I was afraid my question would be confusing. If I had a chalk board and chalk, it would take 10 seconds to draw a signal chain diagram and remove all confusion, but I think we got it now.

I guess a simpler way of stating the situation, is that for the mic going through the rack system, there are TWO phantom power sources in the signal chain, and I was concerned I may cause harm by duplicating the 48V supply.

As I mentioned somewhere above, I can just turn off the racked pre-amp's phantom power, and let the Zoom power both mics, but it has a faint hum, as where the WA-12 is silent.

I think its all good. (no smoke or funny smells)
And thanks again for the advice and patience.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by dnf777

Kev,
Thanks for helping out. I got pulled away from my computer for a while, and don't dare try to type on my phone or pad for any amount of length, or I would have replied sooner. To run through and answer:

A: no. no DAW on this project. recording tracks directly to SD card in the Zoom, and may load them into Reaper later.

B: yes, both mics at the same time

C and D: yes, that is correct.

E: correct, the rack system is running into the Zoom as well, but again, to record to SD card, no interfacing to computer right now.

I think all is good. And yes, I was afraid my question would be confusing. If I had a chalk board and chalk, it would take 10 seconds to draw a signal chain diagram and remove all confusion, but I think we got it now.

I guess a simpler way of stating the situation, is that for the mic going through the rack system, there are TWO phantom power sources in the signal chain, and I was concerned I may cause harm by duplicating the 48V supply.

As I mentioned somewhere above, I can just turn off the racked pre-amp's phantom power, and let the Zoom power both mics, but it has a faint hum, as where the WA-12 is silent.


And thanks again for the advice and patience.

No problem Dave because you have really piqued my curiosity

I hear what you saying and if I am understanding correctly then something in your set up seems Wrong = because IF in fact each mic is connected a different pre -amp section (#1 mic to Zoom) and (#2 mic to WA12) and there is no other physical cable from rack to Zoom (other than line output from rack to line input on Zoom ) then I am guessing it could be something in the digital routing in Zoom. because if you are hearing anything from #2 mic with WA phantom power off that seem to me counter intuitive to what should be happening


So if mic #1 is connected to a Zoom mic input
and mic #2 is connected to to the WA12 mic input

Then NO there( should not be ) a second phantom power source GOING to or powering mic #2 -----
Because with the correct configuration and the phantom power off on the WA12 the #2 MIC should NOT be producing any AUDIBLE signal AT ALL (hum or otherwise)
If that #2 mic is actually producing and audible signal you have something additional , weird and I think definitely WRONG in either your physical routing connections configuration,,, or the digital routing you are using inside the Zoom

Right now I have to get ready to go out and snow blow our access road but will come back to this later


OK done snow blowing

First If I remember correctly your WA-12 mic pre is a mono unit
So are the rest of the rack pieces EQ and comp also mono ?

So lets see If my conception of your system config is correct or may be I should say how I would configure it..

Understanding I do not know what inputs and output connections are on your EQ and Comp I will assume they are 1/4 in. -in and out ?

So the configuration I envision ::

Mic #1 is connected XLR - XLR mic cable into Zoom input channel # 1

Mic #2 Is connected XLR -XLR mic cable to WA-12 XLR balanced input

WA -12 is 1/4 output > to 1/4 input on EQ

EQ is 1/4 out > to 1/4 input on Compressor

Compressor is 1/4 output > to 1/4 line input channel # 7 on Zoom ---Yes ?

[dnf777]

Kev,
Yes, that's pretty much it, with just a few corrections:
the signal chain on mic #2 (Neumann TLM 102) is:

mic >> WA12 pre-amp >> KT-76 compressor >> WA-EQP >> Zoom L8

all patches are XLR 3-pin.

I suppose I could make that last patch from the EQP to the mixer a 1/4" patch into a line input without phantom power. (as it is, all the XLR inputs on the Zoom have phantom power. either all on, or all off, and I need it "on" for mic #1).

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by dnf777

Kev,
Yes, that's pretty much it, with just a few corrections:
the signal chain on mic #2 (Neumann TLM 102) is:

mic >> WA12 pre-amp >> KT-76 compressor >> WA-EQP >> Zoom L8

all patches are XLR 3-pin.

I suppose I could make that last patch from the EQP to the mixer a 1/4" patch into a line input without phantom power. (as it is, all the XLR inputs on the Zoom have phantom power. either all on, or all off, and I need it "on" for mic #1).

Ok so as far as EQ to Comp or Comp to EQ I have seen pro engineers do it both ways , more often than not EQ to Comp ( but we should save that for a different thread )

So I wonder ?? If it is the XLR -XLR from rack to the Zoom that could be the cause ?? Again I am not an electrical engineer but as I understand it phantom power can travel on two of the three pins in an XLR connection So maybe it could travel from Zoom all the way to the #2 mic ????????????????????

Me I would definitely (even if the only output from the EQ is XLR) get an (XLR to 1/4 inch cable ) and definitely plug it into 7 or 8 on the Zoom

For two reasons One they do not have phantom power AND (unless there is a mic pre bypass selection on the Zoom or it's software--- for the first 6 Mic input channels ,,,,, you are in effect also going through the Zoom mic pre for the mic connected to the the WA-12
Which is kinda defeating one reason to go into the WA-12 in the first place-- given it probably has a superior analog circuit than the Zoom

[dnf777]

Kev-
The eq has both XLR and 1/4” outs. I believe they are both balanced, but I think the 7&8 channels on the zoom are not, so a simple TS cable would work.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by dnf777

Kev-
The eq has both XLR and 1/4” outs. I believe they are both balanced, but I think the 7&8 channels on the zoom are not, so a simple TS cable would work.

Yes

Me that is what I would do -- It would make me nervous if the #2 mic worked with WA-12 phantom power off ---especially with the added hummmmmm

I actually use a pair XLR to TRS cables to go from my AEA preamp to my interface and use the AEA phantom power But with my interface all the channels phantom power can be switched on or off individually.