Rethinking setup after K&K install - EQ pedal options???

[Jack Orion]

So I’ve been gigging with a couple of Anthem SL equipped guitars the past few years (a Martin OM28v and a Collings OM2h) - my setup varies a little bit depending on the venue but is normally either an AER Compact 60 (for small ‘coffee house’ gigs)or an Orchid Electronics Acoustic Preamp into whatever house PA is provided. Occasionally I supplement this with a small pedalboard that has a Boss TU3 and a Strymon Bluesky on it but, for my most recent gigs, I’ve been using just the DI and nothing else.

What I like about this setup is the simplicity - a fair amount of my gigs are plug and play or with short soundcheck times (although I’m hoping this is going to change as I start to pickup more ‘fancy’ gigs) and I can normally just grab an XLR from the venue PA and plug my Orchid in and go - with my main guitar (the Martin) I only need to take a tiny bit of mids out to get a pleasing sound and then I pretty much leave well alone unless there’s an issue - ie turn down the bass if there’s feedback.

However, I recently purchased a Collings OM2h T and I’ve had a K&K Pure Mini installed. I had a couple of gigs at the weekend and used the Collings T and the Martin - the Collings sounded okay but I felt there was some frequencies I’d have liked to been able to dial out and my Orchid wasn’t quite getting them - I think the Orchids mid control is around the 800 mark, but I feel like there was some low mids and some high mids that it wasn’t catching unless I turned it completely down and then there was still some other stuff that could sound better.

I also felt the K&K sounded a bit ‘dry’ compared to my Anthem SL so this got me thinking about bringing the Bluesky back into the mix and also about how I could get that extra EQ for the K&K.

So I have a few trains of thought currently - one is just add a Boss GE-7 to my board, stick the Orchid DI back on the board (at the moment I clamp it to the microphone stand) and set it so that I have my normal ‘slightly scooped mids’ setting for the Anthem on the Orchid and then just kick in the GE7 for the K&K - having recorded the K&K direct to Logic and using the graphic EQ set to the same frequencies as the GE-7 I discovered that the frequencies that work are a cut at 400, 800 and 1.6 and a slight boost at 3.2 with a little volume boost to bring it back to pre-eq levels - this seems to give me a much better sound through my headphones although I haven’t tried it through an amp.

The other option is the Empress Para EQ - significantly more expensive than the GE-7 but I don’t mind spending the extra if it’s worth it - again, by setting up a ‘dummy’ three band parametric eq in logic and aping the ParaEQ settings I found a big improvement in the tone,

My issue with this way of going is that I then end up with EQ going into EQ on my board, and that seems a bit off somehow, so my second thought was getting two GE7s (or even two ParaEqs), one for the Anthem and one for the K&K and then just buying a radial stage bug or something similar to send the signal to the desk - this would give me two different settings for my two guitars and give me a nice compact pedalboard that would be as easy to setup as my current rig (apart from having to find a power plug onstage!)

What I want to be able to do is present two different EQ settings to the house PA without needing two separate lines on the desk - perhaps at some point this will be possible but, at the moment, I’m not in a position to be requesting more complicated setups as I’m often playing quick support sets - and be able to switch between them quickly whilst also muting the signal.

I don’t want to get involved with the Tonedexter, I know that a SPS1 or whatever will be the best thing ever and I know that having an external condenser and a 32 band graphic EQ to ring out the room will be great, but that’s just not practical for me - I need to be able to carry two guitars and the rest of my rig in one journey and be setup within 10 minutes and to be able to present to the house a fair representation of the sound I want out front that they can then tweak for the room if needs be but I also need to be able to deal with problem frequencies if there isn’t a competent sound person available.

Anyway, this has become a bit of a ramble but I’d be interested in having a discussion and getting peoples opinions and ideas..

[gfirob]

I have Tonedexter, Play Acoustic and little mixer on a small music stand, with one cable going out to the PA from the mixer. All I need is one power source for the pedals. The three boxes are wired together with short cables so they don't need any setup. And if they don't want to deal with that stuff, then I don't use it, but I use it when I can. There is no better way to make that K&K sound like a real guitar than the Tonedexter. Borrow one and try it out if you can.

[Jack Orion]

Originally Posted by gfirob

I have Tonedexter, Play Acoustic and little mixer on a small music stand, with one cable going out to the PA from the mixer. All I need is one power source for the pedals. The three boxes are wired together with short cables so they don't need any setup. And if they don't want to deal with that stuff, then I don't use it, but I use it when I can. There is no better way to make that K&K sound like a real guitar than the Tonedexter. Borrow one and try it out if you can.

Thanks, but my main guitar, which is my Martin, has the Anthem SL and will be keeping it - it's a pickup which is known to not work with the Tonedexter.

Although I appreciate the advice, the Tonedexter isn't really what I'm after.

[Methos1979]

Something like the Play Acoustic or the Boss VE-8 that has EQ settings and you can then save them to presets. I use the VE-8 and I have different EQ settings for my two guitars and just save them as different presets. That way I just select the preset for whichever guitar I've grabbed and I'm good to go. Then I have the notch knob if I need to dial out a problem frequency. It's worked so well that I've started carrying that to open mic gigs and plug into that and then that out to the PA. It's worked great so far.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by Jack Orion

So I’ve been gigging with a couple of Anthem SL equipped guitars the past few years (a Martin OM28v and a Collings OM2h) - my setup varies a little bit depending on the venue but is normally either an AER Compact 60 (for small ‘coffee house’ gigs)or an Orchid Electronics Acoustic Preamp into whatever house PA is provided. Occasionally I supplement this with a small pedalboard that has a Boss TU3 and a Strymon Bluesky on it but, for my most recent gigs, I’ve been using just the DI and nothing else.

What I like about this setup is the simplicity - a fair amount of my gigs are plug and play or with short soundcheck times (although I’m hoping this is going to change as I start to pickup more ‘fancy’ gigs) and I can normally just grab an XLR from the venue PA and plug my Orchid in and go - with my main guitar (the Martin) I only need to take a tiny bit of mids out to get a pleasing sound and then I pretty much leave well alone unless there’s an issue - ie turn down the bass if there’s feedback.

However, I recently purchased a Collings OM2h T and I’ve had a K&K Pure Mini installed. I had a couple of gigs at the weekend and used the Collings T and the Martin - the Collings sounded okay but I felt there was some frequencies I’d have liked to been able to dial out and my Orchid wasn’t quite getting them - I think the Orchids mid control is around the 800 mark, but I feel like there was some low mids and some high mids that it wasn’t catching unless I turned it completely down and then there was still some other stuff that could sound better.

I also felt the K&K sounded a bit ‘dry’ compared to my Anthem SL so this got me thinking about bringing the Bluesky back into the mix and also about how I could get that extra EQ for the K&K.

So I have a few trains of thought currently - one is just add a Boss GE-7 to my board, stick the Orchid DI back on the board (at the moment I clamp it to the microphone stand) and set it so that I have my normal ‘slightly scooped mids’ setting for the Anthem on the Orchid and then just kick in the GE7 for the K&K - having recorded the K&K direct to Logic and using the graphic EQ set to the same frequencies as the GE-7 I discovered that the frequencies that work are a cut at 400, 800 and 1.6 and a slight boost at 3.2 with a little volume boost to bring it back to pre-eq levels - this seems to give me a much better sound through my headphones although I haven’t tried it through an amp.

The other option is the Empress Para EQ - significantly more expensive than the GE-7 but I don’t mind spending the extra if it’s worth it - again, by setting up a ‘dummy’ three band parametric eq in logic and aping the ParaEQ settings I found a big improvement in the tone,

My issue with this way of going is that I then end up with EQ going into EQ on my board, and that seems a bit off somehow, so my second thought was getting two GE7s (or even two ParaEqs), one for the Anthem and one for the K&K and then just buying a radial stage bug or something similar to send the signal to the desk - this would give me two different settings for my two guitars and give me a nice compact pedalboard that would be as easy to setup as my current rig (apart from having to find a power plug onstage!)

What I want to be able to do is present two different EQ settings to the house PA without needing two separate lines on the desk - perhaps at some point this will be possible but, at the moment, I’m not in a position to be requesting more complicated setups as I’m often playing quick support sets - and be able to switch between them quickly whilst also muting the signal.

I don’t want to get involved with the Tonedexter, I know that a SPS1 or whatever will be the best thing ever and I know that having an external condenser and a 32 band graphic EQ to ring out the room will be great, but that’s just not practical for me - I need to be able to carry two guitars and the rest of my rig in one journey and be setup within 10 minutes and to be able to present to the house a fair representation of the sound I want out front that they can then tweak for the room if needs be but I also need to be able to deal with problem frequencies if there isn’t a competent sound person available.

Anyway, this has become a bit of a ramble but I’d be interested in having a discussion and getting peoples opinions and ideas..

It would be easier for you to rip out the K&K (which personally I'm not fond of), and just slap an Anthem in your Collings. Yes I know the Anthem will slightly change the acoustic tone of the Collings

Another more costly option that would be perfect is. Make a small pedalboard with a Grace Felix, your Blue Sky, and a tuner. With the Felix, use one channel for the K&K (they are known to work well with them) and one channel for the Anthem. And then just A/B them. There is a really good FX loop in the Felix for your Blue Sky, and a tuner out.

One of the problems with the K&K is the multiple bands of problematic mid frequencies. I think a lot of that comes from the K&K needing to see the right impedance and the Felix has switchable input impedance along with a great high pass filter (which can be switched to be a notch filter), and powerful fully parametric mid control with two ranges.

Another option would be a small pedal board with an Grace Alix (single channel version of the Felix) for the K&K, and the Orchid for the Anthem followed by an A/B switch to route either pickup to the Blue Sky.

Or a similar option would be a small pedal board with an Empress for the K&K, and the Orchid for the Anthem followed by an A/B switch to route either pickup to the Blue Sky.

I think the first option, although expensive, would be perfect for what you want though! The Grace Felix is a monster preamp. When I'm not using it out on the road I use it for a Wurlitzer piano in my studio where it is FANTASTIC!

Check out the manual for the Felix.... http://www.gracedesign.com/support/m...anual_RevD.pdf

BTW I do alot of support act work and every house engineer has LOVED the Grace rigs (I have both the Alix and the Felix).

[Jack Orion]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

It would be easier for you to rip out the K&K (which personally I'm not fond of), and just slap an Anthem in your Collings. Yes I know the Anthem will slightly change the acoustic tone of the Collings

Another more costly option that would be perfect is. Make a small pedalboard with a Grace Felix, your Blue Sky, and a tuner. With the Felix, use one channel for the K&K (they are known to work well with them) and one channel for the Anthem. And then just A/B them. There is a really good FX loop in the Felix for your Blue Sky, and a tuner out.

One of the problems with the K&K is the multiple bands of problematic mid frequencies. I think a lot of that comes from the K&K needing to see the right impedance and the Felix has switchable input impedance along with a great high pass filter (which can be switched to be a notch filter), and powerful fully parametric mid control with two ranges.

Another option would be a small pedal board with an Grace Alix (single channel version of the Felix) for the K&K, and the Orchid for the Anthem followed by an A/B switch to route either pickup to the Blue Sky.

Or a similar option would be a small pedal board with an Empress for the K&K, and the Orchid for the Anthem followed by an A/B switch to route either pickup to the Blue Sky.

I think the first option, although expensive, would be perfect for what you want though! The Grace Felix is a monster preamp. When I'm not using it out on the road I use it for a Wurlitzer piano in my studio where it is FANTASTIC!

Check out the manual for the Felix.... http://www.gracedesign.com/support/m...anual_RevD.pdf

BTW I do alot of support act work and every house engineer has LOVED the Grace rigs (I have both the Alix and the Felix).

Unfortunately the Traditional Collings have a 'true' through cut saddle, meaning you can't install an Anthem without altering the bridge (ie routing a channel for the element to sit in and having a drop in saddle) - the K&K seemed the least intrusive pickup I could install in the guitar and lots of people do get a good sound with this pickup (I've heard many people use it live and been impressed) and it does, on one level, sound fine, I just feel a little bit more EQ would allow me to dial out the stuff that's not so good.

I have looked at the Felix option but, in the UK, they are over £1000 and there are a few issues for me - one is that you only have one bad of EQ for the mid-range and I'm finding that, unless you make a really deep cut, one range might not be enough, and also I think it would still mean two channels on the desk, plus having two cables onstage - the two cables on stage isn't the end of the world but I'm sometimes setup in quite cramped conditions so having more stuff to trip over is not so good!

At this point in my gigging career I think something where I'm sending one line to the house and just swapping instruments on stage is better - it's hard enough sometimes to convince sound engineers that I want to use my own di and microphone let alone go down the road of needing two XLR inputs!

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by Jack Orion

Unfortunately the Traditional Collings have a 'true' through cut saddle, meaning you can't install an Anthem without altering the bridge (ie routing a channel for the element to sit in and having a drop in saddle) - the K&K seemed the least intrusive pickup I could install in the guitar and lots of people do get a good sound with this pickup (I've heard many people use it live and been impressed) and it does, on one level, sound fine, I just feel a little bit more EQ would allow me to dial out the stuff that's not so good.

I have looked at the Felix option but, in the UK, they are over £1000 and there are a few issues for me - one is that you only have one bad of EQ for the mid-range and I'm finding that, unless you make a really deep cut, one range might not be enough, and also I think it would still mean two channels on the desk, plus having two cables onstage - the two cables on stage isn't the end of the world but I'm sometimes setup in quite cramped conditions so having more stuff to trip over is not so good!

At this point in my gigging career I think something where I'm sending one line to the house and just swapping instruments on stage is better - it's hard enough sometimes to convince sound engineers that I want to use my own di and microphone let alone go down the road of needing two XLR inputs!

Yes the Felix is expensive, but...

Not true about one band of mid cuts, The high pass filter on each channel can be set via a side-mounted dip switch as a narrow band notch filter that sweeps from 20hz to 1Khz, so that gives you two bands of mid cut.

And you can change the corner frequency of the "Low Control" from 125hz to 250hz!!!

And you can mix the both channels into one DI output (just push a button over one of the XLR outputs), so only one cable to the desk.

As for the inputs you can still use just one cable for each guitar and swap onstage. You would still benefit from having two different channels of EQ!

You really need to read the manual (that's why I left the link for you) as the capabilities of the Felix are far more than appear to the eye. But unlike acoustic guitar digital processors, the Grace isn't menu driven, it uses real analog controls that are very simple to use once you put the time in to learn the layout.

HERE IS THE MANUAL LINK AGAIN....

http://www.gracedesign.com/support/m...anual_RevD.pdf

And having the Blue Sky in the FX loop is definitely the way to go for the sonics! The FX loop (insert jack on back panel) has various send gains adjustable from an internal jumper that really set up the Blue Sky for proper gain-staging!

As for convincing engineers to use the Grace, that should be easy because it's most likely superior to anything they have in their bag especially their mixers!

I said it earlier I do a lot of opening slots and many times I have a very small area on stage to work with so I know your situation well.

And, I own a fairly nice studio with some very high dollar preamps ($2000 to $4000) and the Grace can hang with any of them!

I had a lot of the same concerns as you because I like two instruments on stage, a resonator and a standard acoustic guitar and they require totally different EQ. I pretty much tried everything on the market. And the Empress was the best solution until I tried the Grace preamps. And coming from someone who owns and likes the Empress Para EQ, the Felix is on a whole new level.

[Jack Orion]

Originally Posted by rockabilly69

Yes the Felix is expensive, but...

Not true about one band of mid cuts, The high pass filter on each channel can be set via a side-mounted dip switch as a narrow band notch filter that sweeps from 20hz to 1Khz, so that gives you two bands of mid cut.

And you can change the corner frequency of the "Low Control" from 125hz to 250hz!!!

And you can mix the both channels into one DI output (just push a button over one of the XLR outputs), so only one cable to the desk.

As for the inputs you can still use just one cable for each guitar and swap onstage. You would still benefit from having two different channels of EQ!

You really need to read the manual (that's why I left the link for you) as the capabilities of the Felix are far more than appear to the eye. But unlike acoustic guitar digital processors, the Grace isn't menu driven, it uses real analog controls that are very simple to use once you put the time in to learn the layout.

HERE IS THE MANUAL LINK AGAIN....

http://www.gracedesign.com/support/m...anual_RevD.pdf

And having the Blue Sky in the FX loop is definitely the way to go for the sonics! The FX loop (insert jack on back panel) has various send gains adjustable from an internal jumper that really set up the Blue Sky for proper gain-staging!

As for convincing engineers to use the Grace, that should be easy because it's most likely superior to anything they have in their bag especially their mixers!

I said it earlier I do a lot of opening slots and many times I have a very small area on stage to work with so I know your situation well.

And, I own a fairly nice studio with some very high dollar preamps ($2000 to $4000) and the Grace can hang with any of them!

I had a lot of the same concerns as you because I like two instruments on stage, a resonator and a standard acoustic guitar and they require totally different EQ. I pretty much tried everything on the market. And the Empress was the best solution until I tried the Grace preamps. And coming from someone who owns and likes the Empress Para EQ, the Felix is on a whole new level.

I did read the manual (although I missed the bit about combined DI output so thanks for pointing that out) - having the notch filter isn't quite the same as having two full bands of mid but I suppose you could use it to cut the boomy-ness and then use a much wider Q for the main Mid cut.

I don't doubt the Felix is incredible, I'm just not sure it's the right bit of kit for me at the moment - if I stumbled across a s/h one I might be interested but in the UK I find that unlikely at the moment!

[varmonter]

I've used many pres and have settled on the felix
as well. But it's moot arguing the point because
you don't want to go that route.
But a dual channel preamp sounds like what you need.
There are quite a few out there.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by Jack Orion

I did read the manual (although I missed the bit about combined DI output so thanks for pointing that out) - having the notch filter isn't quite the same as having two full bands of mid but I suppose you could use it to cut the boomy-ness and then use a much wider Q for the main Mid cut.

I don't doubt the Felix is incredible, I'm just not sure it's the right bit of kit for me at the moment - if I stumbled across a s/h one I might be interested but in the UK I find that unlikely at the moment!

Well good luck on setting up your rig and I hope you find something that works for you, I just wanted you to have all the info about the Felix because I remember my frustration when I was in your situation!!!

[kaos]

Imo the stock GE-7 colors the sound and can be noisy. Get a modded one or do the mod yourself ... if you decide to get one.

[rschultz]

I had the Felix, it was cool. But eventually I wised up and realized that for $1000 I can have a used Helix... and it does WAY more. It allowed me to mix a dual sourced guitar (K&K + Anthem SL), all sorts of EQ, comp, reverb, mod, delay, does IR too. I run my electric through it as well as 3 different acoustics. And it does SO much more than I'm not even using. It's a dual processor, so I could also run a mic or other instrument through it at the same time.

I haven't looked back, Helix is the way to go if you can swing $1000.

[rschultz]

Originally Posted by rschultz

I had the Felix, it was cool. But eventually I wised up and realized that for $1000 I can have a used Helix... and it does WAY more. It allowed me to mix a dual sourced guitar (K&K + Anthem SL), all sorts of EQ, comp, reverb, mod, delay, does IR too. I run my electric through it as well as 3 different acoustics. And it does SO much more than I'm not even using. It's a dual processor, so I could also run a mic or other instrument through it at the same time.

Let me make one more point. I used to be a pedal freak. I had 2 boards, a big one and a small one. I had lots of pedals and I loved them all. Then I sold the big one to buy a Helix, that was 6 months ago. And tomorrow I'm trading my small board for a guitar. After tomorrow I won't have ANY pedals... just the Helix, because it does everything, for every situation.

[Spook]

I have a Grace Design Felix and an Empress ParaEQ. The Empress is better at equalization and is a great addition to any rig. That being said, I don't use it much any more because the Felix EQ is good enough while provided a great input stage and other stuff you need.

I'm about to start playing with a ToneDexter (new shiny object.. teach me to read these forums). If it's as good as everyone says it may be worth running an output from a K&K equipped guitar to an A/B DI with whatever you're using for your others.

[rockabilly69]

Originally Posted by Spook

I have a Grace Design Felix and an Empress ParaEQ. The Empress is better at equalization and is a great addition to any rig. That being said, I don't use it much any more because the Felix EQ is good enough while provided a great input stage and other stuff you need.

And what a great multiple impedance input (and transformer balanced output) stage it is When I brought mine into my studio it quickly earned the money I paid for it! The ground lift, multiple inputs/outputs, and EQ were especially helpful with my Wurlitzer Piano!