K&K Pure Mini + Lyric: Why I went back!

[Doubleneck]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

I am confident that I will be trying the K&K + Lyric out (hopefully installing it in January). However, I am really considering putting the Lyric and K&K through one output jack and installing a mag (with the TA4 connector) or a simple Undersaddle through another jack for when I experience feedback.

The Lyric is pretty feedback resistant see what you find when you get it? Then go from there, your thought about feedback is why I think the Lyric and Mag may make a better combo. I could always go straight mag in a band setting.

[Petty1818]

Doubleneck, that's my thinking with it at the moment. I am going to see how the K&K and lyric interact and how feedback resistant they can be without a feedback buster and with one in the sound hole. If I can get away without having any issues then I will leave it at that. However, if I find that in some situations (full band) I am getting feedback then I will look into installing a magnetic pickup.

Oddly enough I find that I like a little bit of a warm and muddy tone when dealing with a dual source set up. I know muddy isn't the best word to describe this but having a little warmth to the tone, which a SBT can achieve would be ideal. The problem with a magnetic/Lyric combo is that I find that for me it would be a touch too bright. I know magnetics often have a warmth and strong bass response but from the demos that I have heard, I have yet to really like the lyric paired with a magnetic. If I installed a magnetic with the TA4 it will be to pair it with the K&K.

I know from experience gigging that the lyric will be a big adjustment for me and as a single source I probably won't love it. I also hate the sound of a single source magnetic. With the Lyric/Magnetic set up I would want more Lyric in the signal and it just wouldn't work out that well.

[Doubleneck]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

Doubleneck, that's my thinking with it at the moment. I am going to see how the K&K and lyric interact and how feedback resistant they can be without a feedback buster and with one in the sound hole. If I can get away without having any issues then I will leave it at that. However, if I find that in some situations (full band) I am getting feedback then I will look into installing a magnetic pickup.

Oddly enough I find that I like a little bit of a warm and muddy tone when dealing with a dual source set up. I know muddy isn't the best word to describe this but having a little warmth to the tone, which a SBT can achieve would be ideal. The problem with a magnetic/Lyric combo is that I find that for me it would be a touch too bright. I know magnetics often have a warmth and strong bass response but from the demos that I have heard, I have yet to really like the lyric paired with a magnetic. If I installed a magnetic with the TA4 it will be to pair it with the K&K.

I know from experience gigging that the lyric will be a big adjustment for me and as a single source I probably won't love it. I also hate the sound of a single source magnetic. With the Lyric/Magnetic set up I would want more Lyric in the signal and it just wouldn't work out that well.

I think you are correct, the Lyric, Mag is a bright sound, which is what I am after. That's partially why I have gravitated to carbon fiber guitars. Your thoughts and the thoughts of many here are why I am thinking of experimenting with the K&K, also I love to tinker. Also I agree muddy is the negative term, a positive term would probably be woody or warmth.

[joeguam]

Originally Posted by Petty1818

simondylan, I am in the process of removing the ES system from my guitar and trying out the K&K + Lyric set up.

May I ask how you dealt with the 3-holes in the upper bout and the endpin assembly? TruPlug? Very curious to hear other ideas.

Originally Posted by Petty1818

It's probably why I hated the Taylor ES system which sounds very magnetic.

I find that I get a really distasteful magnetic sound when I play higher up the freboard on my Taylor GA7e (closer to the humbucker in the neck) and this forces me to play down further on the fretboard. Is there any way to get rid of this magnetic/tinny sound?

[BoB/335]

G. A. S. Attack!

So I've been planning for a long time to go dual source and was planning to install a K&K mini and a AKG 416 condenser mic. After reading through this thread and some PM's with Doug Young (what a great guy) I have decided to go the K&K and Lyric route. I have had the K&K (and AKG) but I just picked up a Lyric.


15% OFF at Musician's Friend on $199 and up till Tuesday (I think) Guitar Center matched the price so another Christmas present for me. I will need the time to install this but I won't be waiting like I have.

[BoB/335]

I was asked in a PM to clarify a few points.

I installed a K&K mini in an old beat up Guild I have and think I did a fine job. ow I have to install it in my Collings. (strss factor)

I have been concerned with feedback of the condenser mic even though many here have internal mics with no problems.

Some here complain of feedback problems with the K&K.

I get lots of compliments on my current sound with an older Fishman Matrix. I don't do much strumming these days but want to do more again so explains my desire to get the UST out of there.

The Lyric seems to have a good reputation so far as being less feedback prone than internal mics.

I like the idea of dual source.

The Lyric/K&K samples that I have heard in this thread sound really great and has given me ample reason to get this done.

I think that about sums up my thoughts on this. (other than that "most" dual source users seem to like to eq each source separately and yet Doug's samples are combined right out of the jack before eq)

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by BoB/335

I think that about sums up my thoughts on this. (other than that "most" dual source users seem to like to eq each source separately and yet Doug's samples are combined right out of the jack before eq)

I think that's because both pickups are reasonable to start with. I general use the K&K mostly flat, and the Lyric's fine flat, too. With some dual sources, you want to EQ to leverag each system's strength or minimize weaknesses. An internal mic tends to have god high end "air", for example, but be boomy and feedback prone on the low end. A mag has a great low end, but the highs sound magnetic. No right or wrong, tho, if you can EQ, I think you can get a nice sound by choosing sources that provide the aspects you need, even if you have to do some EQ to make them work together.

[Doubleneck]

This week at practices the Board made the mag, sound more magnetic than usual for some reason, so I EQd out everything but the bass which reinforced the predominate Lyric which was 75%? of the mix.

[BoB/335]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I think that's because both pickups are reasonable to start with. I general use the K&K mostly flat, and the Lyric's fine flat, too. With some dual sources, you want to EQ to leverag each system's strength or minimize weaknesses. An internal mic tends to have god high end "air", for example, but be boomy and feedback prone on the low end. A mag has a great low end, but the highs sound magnetic. No right or wrong, tho, if you can EQ, I think you can get a nice sound by choosing sources that provide the aspects you need, even if you have to do some EQ to make them work together.

Guessing I'll be making use of this Solstice sitting here but I like the idea of just plugging in your little do-hicky.


Just read through this entire thread again. Lots of good input here and "I" appreciate everyone's opinions. I have read along with other Lyric threads and read so much about it "needing" a LOT of eq. It was enough to scare a person off. Odd that Doug uses it pretty flat. Also reading through again I see that using the Sp1 module goes out with an XLR, is that right? That wouldn't work for me as I am using a Looper and a Harmony pedal which is why I am not going direct to my ZED board. I need to sum the sources before the Looper and is why I got the Solstice. (Although I was suppose to look into the aux in and out on the board to these pedals which just confuses me btw)

[BoB/335]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Any dual source preamp would work fine for me, Solstice, Headway, etc. I have not needed extreme EQ. Flat sounds pretty good. I've used the Raven Labs PMB-I. Bass-mid-treble controls on each channel, which are more than enough (especially since they're mostly left flat!) But it probably depends on the guitar and the sound you want. I play fingerstyle, so I want a warm tone. I'm guessing that a lot of the "need massive EQ" people want a scooped no-midrange sound for strumming. I'd still think you could get that with a simple 3 band eq, just pull down the mids. But it all depends on what you need.

OK. So I'm ready to give this a go over the next week or so and just want to iron our a few things.

Doug says that he runs this pair of pickups pretty flat where some here state that both of these pickups require from some eq to even extreme eq. I guess I will eventually find out "for me" but these opinions are pretty far apart.

Doug's sound samples are thought were great a very informative. The mix of the 2 sounded best to me and he uses a 50-50 mix where others are 80-90% K&K and the rest Lyric. That seems interesting also.

I will be using a Solstice even though I have a ZED 14FX because I want to have a mixed signal to send to a harmonizer and loop pedal before the board (although I believe that there is some way to accomplish this using Aux sends that I have NO IDEA how to do) AND I may not always be using my ZED as the harmony pedal can act as a mixer with a single K8 for a smaller rig)

Then there is the wiring of these two together. I have not yet looked at the preamp jack for the Lyric but I thought I read that the K&K wires will not fit through whatever openings there are so I would need to first extend smaller wires through the jack. Is that right? and what gauge and type of wire? (stranded or solid or does that make a difference?)
Guess I should have started with this point as I need to do this first step before anything else!
And I need to get the K&K installed first and then place the Lyric as close as possible to where it belongs. (Collings D2H)

Then I will need a good quality stereo cable. (and short as possible to the Solstice, right?)

This should be an adventure that I hope I follow through on better that I did with the K&K and AKG 416. For those that might ask: I was always concerned about how feedback prone the internal mic might be and I heard a Martin with a newly installed K&K (that he was sooooo excited about) and I was doing the sound through my system and I had the hardest time trying to get him to not sound so "boxy" is the only way to put it. So many guitars sounded good that day with one of the best being a custom guitar with an Anthem SL in it (but I don't think he strums much if any) So I was not enthused by the K&K in that Martin that day. Doug's K&K alone (in this thread) sounds better than I remember in that Martin but I think the Lyric alone sounds better than the K&K alone. (I guess I could also just try the Lyric alone. Couldn't hurt but I already also have the K&K beyond any returning date and I really like the sound of the 2 combined in Doug's sample)

Guess this is a little long so I'll stop now!!!

OK so one more thing> Is advisable to by-pass the volume control on the Lyric (or can it even be done) when using it dual source? I'll also have to get this UST out of there and get a new saddle installed (THAT I won't do myself. I could probably have a setup and fret redressing (maybe) done on this guitar)


I see that you NEED to use the volume control as that is where the presence control is.

[Doubleneck]

Originally Posted by BoB/335

OK. So I'm ready to give this a go over the next week or so and just want to iron our a few things.

Doug says that he runs this pair of pickups pretty flat where some here state that both of these pickups require from some eq to even extreme eq. I guess I will eventually find out "for me" but these opinions are pretty far apart.

Doug's sound samples are thought were great a very informative. The mix of the 2 sounded best to me and he uses a 50-50 mix where others are 80-90% K&K and the rest Lyric. That seems interesting also.

I will be using a Solstice even though I have a ZED 14FX because I want to have a mixed signal to send to a harmonizer and loop pedal before the board (although I believe that there is some way to accomplish this using Aux sends that I have NO IDEA how to do) AND I may not always be using my ZED as the harmony pedal can act as a mixer with a single K8 for a smaller rig)

Then there is the wiring of these two together. I have not yet looked at the preamp jack for the Lyric but I thought I read that the K&K wires will not fit through whatever openings there are so I would need to first extend smaller wires through the jack. Is that right? and what gauge and type of wire? (stranded or solid or does that make a difference?)
Guess I should have started with this point as I need to do this first step before anything else!
And I need to get the K&K installed first and then place the Lyric as close as possible to where it belongs. (Collings D2H)

Then I will need a good quality stereo cable. (and short as possible to the Solstice, right?)

This should be an adventure that I hope I follow through on better that I did with the K&K and AKG 416. For those that might ask: I was always concerned about how feedback prone the internal mic might be and I heard a Martin with a newly installed K&K (that he was sooooo excited about) and I was doing the sound through my system and I had the hardest time trying to get him to not sound so "boxy" is the only way to put it. So many guitars sounded good that day with one of the best being a custom guitar with an Anthem SL in it (but I don't think he strums much if any) So I was not enthused by the K&K in that Martin that day. Doug's K&K alone (in this thread) sounds better than I remember in that Martin but I think the Lyric alone sounds better than the K&K alone. (I guess I could also just try the Lyric alone. Couldn't hurt but I already also have the K&K beyond any returning date and I really like the sound of the 2 combined in Doug's sample)

Guess this is a little long so I'll stop now!!!

OK so one more thing> Is advisable to by-pass the volume control on the Lyric (or can it even be done) when using it dual source? I'll also have to get this UST out of there and get a new saddle installed (THAT I won't do myself. I could probably have a setup and fret redressing (maybe) done on this guitar)

Here is a pic of my Lyric surgery. As you said you need to solder a wire to the Lyric board's second channel, and it is very tight through the cover. I used a multi strand wire from another pickup, that I shortened. I Just attached a radio shack 1/8 female plug so I could go mag or K&K, etc. Just ignore the spliter I am bringing in two necks. I assume for the K&K you could just sum the three pickups into the second channel jack. I use a stereo cable to my Solstice. I love the Lyric giving this option for the second channel but for the vast majority of people the Lyric alone will be enough. After all my fun, that may be what I do?

[Petty1818]

I am hesitant to try the K&K + Lyric out now. I did a show last night which consisted of 3 acoustic guitars. I had my pure mini, the other players had a Seagull with an undersaddle and a Martin with the Baggs M1. I hated the sound of the undersaddle pickup but both pickups (M1 + undersaddle) were much better at cutting through the mix. I also found that the pure mini had a very natural tone in comparison but it was somewhat too warm. I am actually considering a K&K + undersaddle. I am just not sure what the Lyric would add to the mix. I was hoping it would give some high end but I am not sure if "as natural as possible" is really the way to go.

[El Conquistador]

Petty,
I acquired a "sonic nightmare" gig where my K&K to SA220 was just getting lost as the patrons in the tiny room got louder to hear each other. My role was to be backround, so, simply turning up the volume was not going to work. On a friends advice, I bought a RedEye preamp. As the crowd gets louder and noisier, I simply raise the single EQ nob and it sharpens and defines the tone so that it cuts through very will without having to get louder.

It worked for me,

Steve

[rschultz]

After using this K&K + Lyric combination system for a while now, I have a few thoughts. The Lyric is a great pickup by itself, very natural and very dynamic. There are only 2 things I don't like about it:

• The bass is thin
• It picks up a lot of string squeaks and body noise.

Previously I said:

Originally Posted by rschultz

The K&K is the bulk of the sound. I like to add more mic when I finger pick, and less when I strum.

I'm reversing directions on this. The Lyric is so great, why don't I use it more and the K&K less? The finger squeaks bug me... but I'm learning to control that with left hand technique. When I turn the K&K off the Lyric bass is noticeably thin, but the Lyric sounds great other than that. The bass is there and even well balanced... but just not very full and round. So as I turn the K&K up, the bass fills out real nice. I'm to the point now where that's all I need the K&K for, to round out the bass. I don't find it's not necessary to cut the highs of the K&K, and probably not necessary to cut the lows of the Lyric... but I often do just because that is the range where feedback happens on a mic.

Both pickups are great in their own way, and they both have strengths and weaknesses... and luckily they compliment each other. There is so much flexibility with this combination since each one really can sound great on their own. The only downside I see with the combination is that it requires mixing them externally... not as convenient as the Anthem for example.

Honestly, for many situations, the Lyric by itself would be great... possibly better than the Anthem. Of course, I tried that and found I couldn't live with the Lyric alone, then I started this thread!

[chrono]

Thanks for this informative thread.
Is it possible to wire the K&K pure mini with the Lyric in a mono setup?
If so, are there any extra components that will be required?

Also, is it possible to use the Anthem mixer/preamp with the Lyric and the Pure Mini pickup instead? So you get the blend control that was originally on the Anthem.

Thanks in advance!