Improv Question: scales for bluegrass solos

[bfm612]

I've been playing for a while, but I'm not the best when it comes to theory, scales, etc., so please forgive this potentially capital-D dumb, fundamental question:

When I look at a Billy Strings-style solo on a I-IV-V bluegrass song in G (take this ever-so-popular example), it'll typically be on the G major scale with blue notes or something. At least that's what it looks to me, who has no training in theory. But, my question is, as chords change to D or C, do the solos stay in G major even over the D or C, and the trick is to (occasionally) hit those non-G chords' root tones as you solo over those chords? Or do you actually shift scales when you're over a different chord?

It looks to me like you stay in the same G major scale, but sometimes the solo pattern follows the CAGED shape of the chord over which he's playing. I don't know if that's a distinction without a difference, or if there's actually no distinction.

Again, apologies for the basic question, or if the question makes not sense.

[Italuke]

Not a dumb question at all. I'm at work now but I'll check out that example later. Meantime others smarter than I will chime in. What you've identified is the difference between soloing in the key (or pent scale if that applies) and "playing the changes." The answer is it depends on several factors. Plusses and minuses to each approach.

[bfm612]

Originally Posted by Italuke

Not a dumb question at all. I'm at work now but I'll check out that example later. Meantime others smarter than I will chime in. What you've identified is the difference between soloing in the key (or pent scale if that applies) and "playing the changes." The answer is it depends on several factors. Plusses and minuses to each approach.

Thanks for the quick note! An encouraging and reassuring start!

[Gordon Currie]

Originally Posted by bfm612

But, my question is, as chords change to D or C, do the solos stay in G major even over the D or C, and the trick is to (occasionally) hit those non-G chords' root tones as you solo over those chords? Or do you actually shift scales when you're over a different chord?

Those are two different approaches to soloing. Depends a lot on the specific song.

Myself, I like to blend these approaches. I don't 'shift scales' as much as I look for which notes need emphasis or de-emphasis once the chord has changed. It's an approach that grew out of study of modes.

[Misifus]

Yes. In the key of G major, C and D (D7) are also in that key. Thus, when playing in That (or any) key, you would normally use all three of those chords with the G maj scale.

That said, when a good player is improvising on a tune, in a given key, he (or she) may often include what are called “accidentals”, that is, other notes that are not usually in the given scale. “Blue” notes are one example of these.

[Italuke]

Wow ok so I looked at that BS example, tabbed by Marcel who's a great teacher and IMO it may not be a good example to get a handle on your question. Right off the bat he goes chromatic with those descending lines. So that's ok but it kind of obscures what you need to HEAR to train your ear. Still IMO he's going chromatic but still within G, including the other chords, just taking liberties with it.

Check out Tyler Grant, a video titled "Bluegrass Guitar Breaks" where he breaks down a fairly easy solo in C. You can easily hear where the chords change but instead of "playing the changes" he's still all in C but just highlighting the "right" notes of the F and G chords at the right time. This one helped me a lot. Although I doubt I'll ever be able to play it as fast as he does.

[BlueStarfish]

That's a really great question, never thought about it before. When I listen to bluegrass, at least the simpler versions, I hear a lot of major pentatonic scales ... all those G runs!

So over a G chord (the most favorite chord in bluegrass) you could play a G major pentatonic scale ... which is the same notes as the E minor pentatonic scale you already use for blues but just start on G instead of E. Then when it goes to the 4 chord (C) ... C major pentatonic which is the same notes as A minor pentatonic except start on C ... and so forth. That gives you a starting point from what you already know and then build from there.

[NormanKliman]

Without having listened to the video (it’s too early here), I’ll echo Misifus’ post and say a G major scale (or G pentatonic as BlueStarfish says) will sound natural over those chords. That’s because the notes of all three of those chords are in the G major scale.

But what happens if you change the G chord to a G7? It sounds especially good just before the C chord, because two notes in the G7 chord are just one fret away from two other notes in the C chord. A G7 chord is G-B-D-F and a C major chord is C-E-G, so it sounds good when the B and the F of the G7 chord change to the C and the E of the C major chord. The B goes up to C and the F goes down to E. Something similar happens when you change from D7 to G, when the F# goes up to G and the C goes down to B. When there’s one note of difference, it’s like a magnet pulling your ear toward the next chord.

So, back to my question: What happens if you change the G chord to a G7? The F in that G7 isn’t in the G major scale, so you have to change the F# in that scale to an F. That would make it a G Mixolydian scale (which is spelled just the same as a C major scale). So instead of playing G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G, you play G-A-B-C-D-E-F-G over that G7 chord.

You don’t have to be “aiming” for the root tones of any chords. In fact, it will probably sound unmusical if you try to do that intentionally. Just wander and let you ear and your imagination guide the melody. But you do have to take into account any chord tones that take the melody away from the underlying major scale.

For example, it doesn’t happen much in bluegrass, but another common alteration in jazz and other styles is to change the D7 to a D augmented in order to lead into a G chord. D augmented is D-F#-A#, and when you go back to G, it sounds good because the F# goes up to G and the A# goes up to B, and you’d have to take into account that A#, which isn’t in the G major scale.

[Andyrondack]

Originally Posted by bfm612

I've been playing for a while, but I'm not the best when it comes to theory, scales, etc., so please forgive this potentially capital-D dumb, fundamental question:

When I look at a Billy Strings-style solo on a I-IV-V bluegrass song in G (take this ever-so-popular example), it'll typically be on the G major scale with blue notes or something. At least that's what it looks to me, who has no training in theory. But, my question is, as chords change to D or C, do the solos stay in G major even over the D or C, and the trick is to (occasionally) hit those non-G chords' root tones as you solo over those chords? Or do you actually shift scales when you're over a different chord?

It looks to me like you stay in the same G major scale, but sometimes the solo pattern follows the CAGED shape of the chord over which he's playing. I don't know if that's a distinction without a difference, or if there's actually no distinction.

Again, apologies for the basic question, or if the question makes not sense.

Personally for a major scale sound with no hint of swing or those devlish blues I use the chord tones + the 2nd and 6th intervals of the chord, so in C maj on the C chord use cegda, on F chord facgd G7 chord gbdfae, all those notes added together = C major scale, the other tones are available to be used as pasing tones skimed over on the way to a chord tone or the 2nd and 6th, it's the use of these tones when used sparingly that give the phrases some melodic interest. If you use too many non chord tones it will become chaotic unless you are carefull to hit chord tones on strong beats, if you only use chord tones it can get boring with 3 note chords.
Ps your tabbed example isn't that usefull because there is no indication of rythmn, if you pass over a tone quickly on the way somewhere else it doesn't matter what you play a characteristic of that solo is chromatic runs , I assume the target notes are chord tones but without bar lines and note time values theres no way to tell, I can't hear the soundtrack without the app.
So the answer to your question from me is personally I change scales on each chord but only the major pentatonic scale, and then might join up the strong beats with a chromatic run or two.

[bfm612]

Thanks for the responses, everyone! It sounds like the scale approach and “playing the scale” approach both work, which eases my confusion although I’ve got a lot of studying left especially after having read in NormanKliman’s and Andyrondack’s more technical replies. I will re-read them more closely but I’m sure they’ll be helpful once I get ‘em. Keep the responses coming if there’s anything to add. Lots to learn.

[Sponserv]

This is an excellent question. No such thing as a dumb question...capital D or otherwise. LOL

I have the exact same question. But I was just planning on asking it a different way. I was going to ask about "Chasing the chords" in a key while improvising.

[Andyrondack]

Originally Posted by Sponserv

This is an excellent question. No such thing as a dumb question...capital D or otherwise. LOL

I have the exact same question. But I was just planning on asking it a different way. I was going to ask about "Chasing the chords" in a key while improvising.

Yes chasing the chords describes what's probably going on problem with the example given is the chromatic run which obscures the important target notes and the lack of any bar lines or note values to show the proportion of chord tones v non chord tones which occur on strong beats. You may find it usefull to reverse engineer it, get a recorording, isolate the run through the chords slow it down and play along but just with arpegios from the chords and listen to how the single line runs differ from your chord tone playing.

[bfm612]

I'm still trying to see if I can identify examples that help me make the distinction, so below is two measures of a Brown's Ferry Blues solo. The first bar is over the G chord and the second is over the C chord. (Think of "His knees knock but he's ready to go" over the G and "You can smell his feet everywhere he go" over the C.)

So, while the second bar ends with the C chord strummed, are the single notes picked during the first part of that second bar of the C chord based on the G major scale or is this an example of chasing the chords?

[BlueStarfish]

The notes from the second bar are “mostly” from the C Major pentatonic scale (which again has same notes as A Minor pentatonic, but starting on C instead of A).

There are two D#’s, which is a sharped 2nd. This would be a pretty standard passing note to insert into a bluegrass lick. Again think G runs.

Another way to think of those two D#’s — is that they are the “blue” notes from a blues scale in A (that is, an A minor pentatonic scale with the extra blue notes). But it being bluegrass, that scale is played starting on C instead of A.

Try it. Take your notes from an A blues scale. Except start on C instead of A. It will sound like bluegrass.

OK, here’s another part of the puzzle for you. This is easier to see if you have a piano or keyboard instrument in front of you. Play a G Major pentatonic scale (G-B-D-E, which are the notes of a G6 chord arpeggiated, though 6 chords are not usually played all at once in bluegrass). Next, play a C Major pentatonic scale (C-E-G-A). Next, play a D Major pentatonic scale (D-F#-A-B). These are the 1-4-5 chords in G. What you should see is that these three major pentatonic scales cover all of the scale tones in the key of G Major.

Here’s why I point that out. You keep asking “when the chord changes, do you change the scale too?” Well the root of the chord changes from 1 to 4 to 5... so the best fitting major pentatonic scale changes along with it. However (at least with a 1-4-5 progression) these major pentatonic scales are all just subsets of the major scale associated with the primary key of the song. So the answer to your question is “yes ... and no at the same time.” That’s why you aren’t getting a clean answer to your question.

That’s a lot of complication and theory which is nice but not the same as chops. But since you asked!

[bfm612]

@BlueStarfish - Thanks for this! I think it's a great explanation (maybe just because I was able to follow it). I watched a YouTube video explaining as much, but yours was easy to follow. I see what you're saying about the answer being yes and no all at once.

Much appreciated!