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  #31  
Old 05-17-2016, 06:34 AM
jkwrpc jkwrpc is offline
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Tom - Very thoughtful comments. I am not in a position to disagree. I would simply suggest that there are already CF Nylon String crossovers for people who want them.

There is not a reasonably priced traditional style classical guitar that a classical player can purchase to try. To say they will, or will not, play one if available is pure speculation either way.

Do I believe such a guitar if one existed will be the sales leader, my answer is no. Do I believe the guitar will sell and slowly grow in sales over time as awareness increases, my answer is yes. Classical guitar players suffer humidity and other issues just like acoustic players. CF will be attracted to solutions for those concerns. In Journey's case they also travel. Do I believe there is niche to filled, my answer is yes.
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  #32  
Old 05-17-2016, 09:22 AM
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Tom2;

I like your methodic approach to finding your ideal guitar. My approach has been much more chaotic. For a very busy five year period I went through over 40 nylon string guitars. I'd buy them, try them, and then sell them. I counted the loss as rental fee.

There are a lot of hybrid wooden nylon string guitars and I ultimately came to prefer those with the 1 7/8" nut width, a cutaway, and parlor-sized dimensions. I had just settled on a Takamine when I ran across my first CF guitar, a Cargo. I could hardly believe the projection and tonal qualities of such a small guitar and began looking for a nylon string in carbon fiber.

My chaos method of research has taken me though just about every CF nylon string guitar. In my estimation, all of the CF nylon string guitars are worthy instruments. I've ended up with two quite different guitars, both of which are more than satisfactory but not yet my ideal. The production model Rainsong Parlor is a sweet instrument but a little narrow in the nut width and short on the fret reach. The custom Emerald X10-OSN gives me my preferred nut width and fret reach but does not quite have the note separation and projection of my dream guitar.

The two guitars mentioned are well balanced, comfortable, nice sounding, and they electrify well. I am pleased with what I have. But still tempted by new developments and by Journey's explorations.
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  #33  
Old 05-17-2016, 04:09 PM
Tom2 Tom2 is offline
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Originally Posted by jkwrpc View Post
Tom - Very thoughtful comments. I am not in a position to disagree. I would simply suggest that there are already CF Nylon String crossovers for people who want them.

There is not a reasonably priced traditional style classical guitar that a classical player can purchase to try. To say they will, or will not, play one if available is pure speculation either way.
I hear you.

My post is a response to Rob's RFI. He needs to choose between making a classical or a crossover. Since my interest is crossover, I'm offering insights from that perspective. The "jack of all trades, master of none" approach to guitar design is not the right approach, which is why there are so many different styles of guitar. By providing as much detail as possible for my preferred design, I'm helping Rob evaluate potential market share for his new offering.

While I agree that there is a hole in the market for a production model cf classical, I assert that the hole also exists for a cf crossover. Aside from the fretboard radius, the Blackbird Nylon Rider is a classical guitar. While the new Emerald is a true crossover, the nylon upcharge effectively doubles the price of the instrument, so it's not a true production model. The Rainsong NP12 has a specially designed soundboard, but repurposes its steel string neck. A true crossover needs a specially designed soundboard and a specially designed neck. So, right now there are no production cf crossovers available. If there were, I would have bought one instead of the wooden one I have now.

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Originally Posted by EvanB View Post
My chaos method of research has taken me though just about every CF nylon string guitar. In my estimation, all of the CF nylon string guitars are worthy instruments. I've ended up with two quite different guitars, both of which are more than satisfactory but not yet my ideal. The production model Rainsong Parlor is a sweet instrument but a little narrow in the nut width and short on the fret reach. The custom Emerald X10-OSN gives me my preferred nut width and fret reach but does not quite have the note separation and projection of my dream guitar.
The NP12 sounds truly amazing, at least as good as wood. I have never wanted to like a guitar more than this one. In fact, after playing it, I sent Rainsong an email that began with, "This guitar is so wonderful in so many ways, I feel you deserve an explanation for why I didn't buy one."

I've never played an Emerald, but I suspect their "one piece construction" may limit tonal flexibility. Combining different materials for the top and back, and using the sides to vibrationally isolate the top from the back, give wooden guitars their magic. Compare spruce/maple to cedar/mahogany. Adding this level of flexibility to the cf manufacturing process will eventually produce a truly superior instrument. I think that a more compliant top with a less compliant back and completely rigid sides would be amazing.
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  #34  
Old 05-17-2016, 04:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom2 View Post
I hear you.

My post is a response to Rob's RFI. He needs to choose between making a classical or a crossover. Since my interest is crossover, I'm offering insights from that perspective. The "jack of all trades, master of none" approach to guitar design is not the right approach, which is why there are so many different styles of guitar. By providing as much detail as possible for my preferred design, I'm helping Rob evaluate potential market share for his new offering.

While I agree that there is a hole in the market for a production model cf classical, I assert that the hole also exists for a cf crossover. Aside from the fretboard radius, the Blackbird Nylon Rider is a classical guitar. While the new Emerald is a true crossover, the nylon upcharge effectively doubles the price of the instrument, so it's not a true production model. The Rainsong NP12 has a specially designed soundboard, but repurposes its steel string neck. A true crossover needs a specially designed soundboard and a specially designed neck. So, right now there are no production cf crossovers available. If there were, I would have bought one instead of the wooden one I have now.



The NP12 sounds truly amazing, at least as good as wood. I have never wanted to like a guitar more than this one. In fact, after playing it, I sent Rainsong an email that began with, "This guitar is so wonderful in so many ways, I feel you deserve an explanation for why I didn't buy one."

I've never played an Emerald, but I suspect their "one piece construction" may limit tonal flexibility. Combining different materials for the top and back, and using the sides to vibrationally isolate the top from the back, give wooden guitars their magic. Compare spruce/maple to cedar/mahogany. Adding this level of flexibility to the cf manufacturing process will eventually produce a truly superior instrument. I think that a more compliant top with a less compliant back and completely rigid sides would be amazing.
I'm just curious if anyone has any experience with the Ovation (wood top, composite back) and Adamas (all composite, though the composite top may have a wood element in the 'sandwich') nylon guitars, and where they fit in the discussion, if at all.
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  #35  
Old 05-17-2016, 06:41 PM
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I've had several Ovation nylon string guitars--they are marvelous instruments. Ovation makes a great neck, has solid electronics, and has stellar tonal and projection qualities. But I never found them comfortable.
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  #36  
Old 05-17-2016, 08:42 PM
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I've had several Ovation nylon string guitars--they are marvelous instruments. Ovation makes a great neck, has solid electronics, and has stellar tonal and projection qualities. But I never found them comfortable.
Is there a way, a mod, that could make it comfortable as you'd like? I've never been a fan of the bowl back, but in your case Evan, if everything else works and one can be affordably had, might it be worth an innovative, inexpensive mod (something akin to the 'Neck-Up' device for solving neck position issues)?
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  #37  
Old 05-17-2016, 11:12 PM
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Hey Guys, really appreciate the dialogue. This is extremely helpful for us in deciding specifications.
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  #38  
Old 05-18-2016, 12:22 AM
sirwhale sirwhale is offline
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I have a Córdoba mini which has a full nut width of 50mm and I also pick up the classical guitars at school sometimes during a break (I am a teacher). I'll have to measure these, they could 50 or 52mm, not sure.

My style is much more steel-string than classical; I thumb over a lot.

The mini allows me to thumb over because the neck is very shallow but the classicals at school have necks that a very full (beefy) and joined with the larger width, it limits what I can do.

I think 48mm would be great, but also, with the added width, the neck couldn't be too beefy for me either.
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  #39  
Old 05-18-2016, 09:30 AM
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Tom;

I tried different kinds of tapes and sticky stuff but never really felt comfortable with the Ovations. I believe that one of the first rules of work is to get comfortable--on your mark, get set, and so forth.

I tried the neck-up on my various Blackbird instruments. Again, the instruments are incredibly good, but I found the NU to be an encumbrance.

As I've gotten older I've tried to lighten the load. I've thinned the herd, eliminated battery boxes, found strong-but-light bags, and so forth. I'm at the point where it's mono-a-mono, me and my guitar.
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  #40  
Old 05-19-2016, 11:25 AM
Tom2 Tom2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanB View Post
I like your methodic approach to finding your ideal guitar. My approach has been much more chaotic.
And more entertaining.
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  #41  
Old 05-19-2016, 11:49 AM
Tom2 Tom2 is offline
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First experiment complete.

Replaced factory nut (1 41/64" string spacing) with custom nut (1 5/8" string spacing).

My guitar has a neck width of 1 7/8 at the nut, 2 1/4" at the 12th fret, and string spacing of 2 3/8" at the saddle. The 1 5/8" string spacing at the nut produces a 1/8" fretboard edge gap for each E string for the entire length of the neck.

I experience plenty of room for my fingers everywhere on the fretboard. No crowding, no accidental string muting. However, high E string slippage is a problem beyond the 5th fret.

Next step, create a notched saddle with 2 1/4 string spacing.

I notice quite a difference experientially when shifting to this slightly narrowed string spacing. So much so that I'm giving my brain synapses and nervous system a few days to acclimate before I install the new saddle. The muscles in my left hand and arm automatically relaxed a lot in response to the reduced risk of high E string slippage. When my body talks, I listen.
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  #42  
Old 05-19-2016, 06:17 PM
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Yo, tom 2;

Are you having fun yet? You know Aristotle suggested that happiness was the true goal of life. It sounds me to me like you are pretty happy. I find this forum full of people who have worked hard, who are willing to stretch a bit for what they want, and who appreciate what they have. This is pretty neat stuff.
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  #43  
Old 05-23-2016, 08:09 AM
ceciltguitar ceciltguitar is offline
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The "right" dimensions of a guitar can make a big difference in playability!!!

But there is at least some variance in what the "right" dimensions are for each individual!

Everyone has their own preference for "ideal" dimensions of string spacing at the nut, string spacing at the bridge, scale length, space between the outer strings and the edge of the neck, neck profile, neck thickness and neck width, body shape, size and depth, body length and width of upper and lower bouts.

Alicia Kopfstein-Penk wrote a book called "The Healthy Guitar" about these sorts of things, and in our brief correspondence she stated that she is working on an update.

Here was my email to her (fwiw):

"I think that the line of research that you are doing is important!

If you have not already, maybe charts or nomograms could be developed to determine ideal scale length, neck width, guitar body thickness, body length and width of upper and lower bouts, etc, using whatever factors are determined to be involved, such as height, torso length, shoulder width, waist size, hand length and width, length of the humerus, the radius and the ulna, as well as perhaps the ratio of these lengths, finger length to hand length ratio, fingertip diameter and circumference, ratio of finger lengths to one another etc. I think that it might be very helpful for EVERY guitar teacher, EVERY guitar builder, EVERY music shop that sells guitars to have such charts / nomograms / graphs on hand to help EVERY aspiring guitarist to acquire the ideal size guitar for their physiological attributes.

Several years ago I ran a quick simple ratio comparison comparing my 5'6" stature to someone who is 6'3", and decided that if our hand size ratio matched our heights then I should play capo 2 or 3 to have a similair hand size to scale length ratio."

Personally, since I have fat fingers, I want slightly MORE string spacing than on a standard "classical" guitar at both the nut and at the bridge. But since I have short fingers, I want a smaller scale length.

I hope that the future belongs to people like Alistair that can customize all of these dimensions!!
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  #44  
Old 06-06-2016, 05:47 PM
Tom2 Tom2 is offline
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Quote:
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Yo, tom 2;

Are you having fun yet? You know Aristotle suggested that happiness was the true goal of life. It sounds me to me like you are pretty happy. I find this forum full of people who have worked hard, who are willing to stretch a bit for what they want, and who appreciate what they have. This is pretty neat stuff.
I focus on flow, the sensation produced by life energy as it moves through my being. I've become quite skilled at identifying both internal and external factors that either enhance or impede flow. Whenever I successfully optimize some aspect of my personal life that facilitates greater flow, I always look for a way to upload my success to the social dimension for others to try. Right now it's guitar geometry.
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  #45  
Old 06-06-2016, 06:11 PM
Tom2 Tom2 is offline
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E strings are too close to the fretboard edge with this configuration, but not by much. It's only an issue when I'm playing fast, but coming from years of lead electric guitar, I often play fast. There are no finger crowding issues.

I realized that a crossover guitar is a classical guitar modified for comfort, not a steel string guitar modified for nylon strings. The difference may not be obvious at first, but it's clear to me now. String tension is the engine that powers guitars, and classical guitars represent many years of optimization for nylon string tension. So the goal is not to find some happy medium between nylon and steel. It's to embrace the refinements that are already embodied in a classical guitar, while modifying it as little as possible (but as much as necessary) to make it comfortable for steel string players.

The obvious main issue is neck width, and I feel confident in saying that 48mm at the nut and 57mm at the 12th fret is the widest neck that the majority of steel string players will be comfortable with. String spacing of 41.5mm at the nut and 57mm at the saddle is on the edge of unplayable because of high E string slippage. My current saddle is notched for 57mm, so my next nut will have 41mm string spacing. If I still need more fretboard edge space, I'll alternately reduce saddle and nut spacing by 0.5mm until playing is stable.
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