Click track... with tempo map?

[Chipotle]

I record both to a click or not, depending on the project. I'd like to use a click on my current song. It has a natural tendency to vary (in a good way), speeding up a bit on the chorus and then coming down on the verses. But I would like a click to make sure I don't end up rushing the slower verses.

Has anyone recorded to a click with a tempo map? I'm thinking about pre-programming the tempo changes into the click track. Pros? Cons? Things to look out for? Terrible idea?

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

I record both to a click or not, depending on the project. I'd like to use a click on my current song. It has a natural tendency to vary (in a good way), speeding up a bit on the chorus and then coming down on the verses. But I would like a click to make sure I don't end up rushing the slower verses.

Has anyone recorded to a click with a tempo map? I'm thinking about pre-programming the tempo changes into the click track. Pros? Cons? Things to look out for? Terrible idea?

There are those who can play wonderfully with a click track. I saw it often in my days in Nashville. Among those many, many could play naturally, not only with a click, but with a varying tempo mapped click. Those guys however could indeed play with the click, in front of the click, behind the click, under and over the click and anywhere in between. I just am not that good

I think it's a great idea but you have to have that click feeling but not lock and get mechanical. I'm generally ok with a standard click but I think I'd have a tough tome with mapped tempo changes.

[FrankHudson]

Assuming you can work with a click that should work for your aim.

If you find out you can't work with a click, you can always something else to mark out your tempo, even a "scratch track" that you don't intend to use.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

I record both to a click or not, depending on the project. I'd like to use a click on my current song. It has a natural tendency to vary (in a good way), speeding up a bit on the chorus and then coming down on the verses. But I would like a click to make sure I don't end up rushing the slower verses.

Has anyone recorded to a click with a tempo map? I'm thinking about pre-programming the tempo changes into the click track. Pros? Cons? Things to look out for? Terrible idea?

I've done this fairly often. I don't usually use a click for solo guitar stuff, but when playing with others, I usually do. On my DUETs CD as well as some other individual tunes I've done with Teja Gerken, many of the tracks used clicks, and often I'd want the tempo to vary a bit. You can basically program in not only subtle tempo changes, like the chorus picking a few BPM, but also things like holds (fermata), or even time signature changes. It can be a bit of work to set up, and usually requires some dry runs to fine tune the changes until it feels right.

[AcousticDreams]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

I'd like to use a click on my current song. It has a natural tendency to vary (in a good way), speeding up a bit on the chorus and then coming down on the verses. But I would like a click to make sure I don't end up rushing the slower verses.

Has anyone recorded to a click with a tempo map? I'm thinking about pre-programming the tempo changes into the click track. Pros? Cons? Things to look out for? Terrible idea?

This is a most excellent subject matter.
I also tend to change tempos in various areas of the song. Sometimes even adding timing...or huge pauses and spaces.

Currently I do not know how to change the timing, speed and all of the other possibilities in Logic Pro. Been meaning to google a video up on the subject matter.

Very interested in this....Tempo Map? As only a musician by ear...how would one be able to even know the timing one is playing in? Is there a way to record the piece and then see the timing and time changes In Logic Pro?

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

Very interested in this....Tempo Map? As only a musician by ear...how would one be able to even know the timing one is playing in? Is there a way to record the piece and then see the timing and time changes In Logic Pro?

Yes, you can actually playing something, and assuming there's some semblance of a beat for Logic to pick up on, it can figure out the tempo, including changes for you, and then the click will play along with you...

[jim1960]

I've tried it and the part where I always got tripped up was the transition. I think that's because when you go from one tempo to another, there can be a single note that is in a third tempo somewhere between the other two. That note acts as a gradation of sorts that makes it hard to land on the first beat in the second tempo.

[b1j]

Originally Posted by FrankHudson

Assuming you can work with a click that should work for your aim.

If you find out you can't work with a click, you can always something else to mark out your tempo, even a "scratch track" that you don't intend to use.

This sounds sensible.

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I've done this fairly often. I don't usually use a click for solo guitar stuff, but when playing with others, I usually do. On my DUETs CD as well as some other individual tunes I've done with Teja Gerken, many of the tracks used clicks, and often I'd want the tempo to vary a bit. You can basically program in not only subtle tempo changes, like the chorus picking a few BPM, but also things like holds (fermata), or even time signature changes. It can be a bit of work to set up, and usually requires some dry runs to fine tune the changes until it feels right.

Good to hear you've had good results. Sometimes ideas can end up being "worst of both worlds" rather than better. I set it up in a few spots and played along, and like you said tweaked it a bit until it felt fairly natural.

I'm also spreading small changes (3-5bpm) over a few bars, rather than try to hit the new tempo precisely on "1". I listened to a few un-clicked takes and that seems to be how it works naturally; the feel of the tempo started to change in the pickup to the measure and then settled in some beats later.

I just wanted some assurance I wasn't totally out in left field with something that wasn't going to work.

Assuming you can work with a click that should work for your aim.

I can play with a click fine, or play without and my timing is pretty good. I just have a particular song where neither approach was getting me what I wanted, tempo-wise. It needed to "breathe" a bit more than a strict tempo, but without a click I was having trouble getting a-tempo when returning to the verse.

[keith.rogers]

Originally Posted by Knives&Guitars

...
Currently I do not know how to change the timing, speed and all of the other possibilities in Logic Pro. Been meaning to google a video up on the subject matter.
...

You open up the global tracks and edit the Tempo track much like you would edit Volume/Pan/etc. automation lines in other tracks.

As Doug says, you can find beats in Logic, but it depends on the audio how well that works.

I find that trying to play to a variable click can be harder than playing to a straight click, and so usually just go with ignoring the click if it's something simple like slowing down at the ending. And, I generally only use a click if I'm working on something collaborative, i.e., not recorded "live" with people together, though then I often just use it to create a scratch track, and then that becomes the tempo.

[min7b5]

Not answering the question about mapping. But in terms of the click and feel, one thing that has been very helpful for me is to only have the click marking the two and four. Of course you’d want to practice this quite a bit in advance as it can take a while to get the hang of - I made a video about this a while ago here: https://youtu.be/sWOa0vfv5FY

Having it on the two and four can really help with losing the mechanical feel thing, and more importantly get that lilt in the groove this so important in probably just about every style of music besides maybe punk and opera.

Like Doug, I’ve mostly not used it on solo guitar records, but a little bit on an upcoming duo album I made with Jamie Stillway. We're making improvisational live recordings so we don’t know where the endings are going to be exactly, but basically just told the engineer that when I raise my eyebrows to turn it off. Or sometimes we’d just intently ignore it for a bit.. And we’re doing this sitting close together with one headphone on and one off, hearing each other naturally -partially anyway. Being completely in headphones with a click throws me off quite a bit.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

I'm also spreading small changes (3-5bpm) over a few bars, rather than try to hit the new tempo precisely on "1". I listened to a few un-clicked takes and that seems to be how it works naturally; the feel of the tempo started to change in the pickup to the measure and then settled in some beats later.

Unless a tune specifically does a sudden tempo jump for effect, I think most live music changes gradually. Like the band may pick up energy gradually either into or after starting a chorus. Might sort of ritard a bit at the end of a section back into a gentler feel and so on. So, yes, when I've done this, I've usually tried to emulate that - not just suddenly jump by some number of bpm. I've done tunes where I start at say, 120, and end at 128 or whatever, evenly speeding up over the course of the entire tune. I use Logic, which makes it pretty easy to draw ramps over any period of time. Hopefully, when I've done it right, playing along with the click just feels right and I don't even notice tempo changes.

Eric's suggestion of clicking on 2 & 4 is also helpful. Gives you synchronization points, so you have to overall stay in tempo, but the tiny bit of wiggle room between the beats lets you add more feel. Depending on the tune, I may also use a drum track, which can feel a bit better than a straight click - and it will follow the tempo map. Tho sometimes that can backfire, if it's the drum part creating the groove instead of me. Sometimes I'll think it sounds great when playing along with the drum/click track, then when I mute that, my part sounds lifeless. So in some ways, it's better to have a boring click, so you're forced to create the feel.

For me, again, this is all for multi-player stuff. Mostly trying to be nice to my playing partners who won't have to follow my time gyrations while overdubbing if I'm playing in time. For solo guitar, I practice to a click/metronome, then generally record without one.

[DupleMeter]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

I record both to a click or not, depending on the project. I'd like to use a click on my current song. It has a natural tendency to vary (in a good way), speeding up a bit on the chorus and then coming down on the verses. But I would like a click to make sure I don't end up rushing the slower verses.

Has anyone recorded to a click with a tempo map? I'm thinking about pre-programming the tempo changes into the click track. Pros? Cons? Things to look out for? Terrible idea?

I do it all the time. The trick is to make the tempo transitions smooth so they feel natural. A linear increase/decrease over a measure or 2 will not sound natural. You're likely going to have to play with the tempo curve a little until you get a curve that feels right.

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by min7b5

Not answering the question about mapping. But in terms of the click and feel, one thing that has been very helpful for me is to only have the click marking the two and four. Of course you’d want to practice this quite a bit in advance as it can take a while to get the hang of - I made a video about this a while ago here: https://youtu.be/sWOa0vfv5FY

Having it on the two and four can really help with losing the mechanical feel thing, and more importantly get that lilt in the groove this so important in probably just about every style of music besides maybe punk and opera.

Like Doug, I’ve mostly not used it on solo guitar records, but a little bit on an upcoming duo album I made with Jamie Stillway. We're making improvisational live recordings so we don’t know where the endings are going to be exactly, but basically just told the engineer that when I raise my eyebrows to turn it off. Or sometimes we’d just intently ignore it for a bit.. And we’re doing this sitting close together with one headphone on and one off, hearing each other naturally -partially anyway. Being completely in headphones with a click throws me off quite a bit.

I have found that I, too, seem to follow a pre-programmed tempo on a click track when using clicks on only beats two and four. I don't know why that works better for me, but it does.

I find that if I slow a piece down, that change occurs at the end, so I just play to a click track and slow down at the end, ignoring the click track tempo at that point and then later adjust the tempo map at the end to match what I actually played.

I have played to a pre-programmed click track with a varying tempo map, but I really had to work at it to discipline myself. I ended up making a lot of adjustments to the tempo map to match what I really wanted to play internally. I can't say my limited experience was all that positive, but I did finally get there.

- Glenn

[DupleMeter]

I will also mention that playing to a click is a practiced skill. Being able to play around the grid to feel human is an art. I work with some of the best session guys, who make it look easy. It’s not.

The funny thing is, all the heavy hitters want more subdivisions not fewer. They never ask for 2&4, but will ask for 8ths on slower pieces to stay locked in.