New to Classical- Guitar advice

[rick-slo]

Again a bit odd just the B string intonates more flat the higher up the neck you fret. Try a new string of the same or a little higher gauge.

I will assume the guitar's action height is good all the way up the fretboard and that the string does not have a too high gap between it and the frets.

Also eliminate the guitar's nut from the usual suspects (though not likely the cause in this case) - capo say on to the fourth or fifth fret - get all in tune to that - check intonation of the B string when fretting higher up on the neck.

[mr. beaumont]

I'm holding out hope that the new one is a winner.

[georgeMC]

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

AAARRRGHHH!

YES! All very frustrating. I feel like the guy who goes to the mechanic and he tells me it's the Johnson Rod. Although they were very nice at GC and in no way trying to pull one over on me.

I currently own 6 other guitars and had a few others I've sold in my lifetime. I've never had to trouble shoot issues such as this, because I've never had any with other instruments.

[georgeMC]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Again a bit odd just the B string intonates more flat the higher up the neck you fret. Try a new string of the same or a little higher gauge.

I will assume the guitar's action height is good all the way up the fretboard and that the string does not have a too high gap between it and the frets.

I did think that changing the string would have been the first thing he would have done, but he didn't even mention that.

And yes the action was good all the way up.

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

A HUGE ditto on that. A dead giveaway of someone who's mainly used to steel string guitars.

Can you expect anything else in anything but a store that sells mostly classicals or caters to conservatory students? Anyway, ensuring that the strings are properly seated giving them a good pull before tuning them up doesn't strike me as particularly odd..

A "tech" that has proper pitches associated with a string up to the 6th fret and THEN starts to go progressively flatter probably needs to put a bit more thought into a diagnosis of "saddle position".

Even if he didn't use a tuner, or allowed for a reasonable margin of error? The intonation error on that string undoubtedly grew with each higher fret; a sudden error at the 6th or 7th fret on a single string of at least 2 consecutively tested sets seems impossible.

[kanefsky]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

A HUGE ditto on that. A dead giveaway of someone who's mainly used to steel string guitars.

Aquila knows more about guitar strings than I ever will, or most other string manufacturers for that matter:

[hesson11]

Originally Posted by kanefsky

Aquila knows more about guitar strings than I ever will, or most other string manufacturers for that matter:

I agree with you 100 percent, kanefsky. But this video specifically is for Aquila strings, which because of the company's intrepid and laudable innovations, are very different from most nylon or carbon strings. I don't know whether their recommended method of stretching strings can be applied to more traditional types of strings. I'm not saying it can't be, I'm just saying I don't know.

[kanefsky]

Originally Posted by hesson11

I agree with you 100 percent, kanefsky. But this video specifically is for Aquila strings, which because of the company's intrepid and laudable innovations, are very different from most nylon or carbon strings. I don't know whether their recommended method of stretching strings can be applied to more traditional types of strings. I'm not saying it can't be, I'm just saying I don't know.

It says "especially the nylgut ones" at the beginning, so presumably it's meant to apply to different string formulations. I'm doubtful that it's recommended to stretch every different type of string Aquila makes but forbidden to stretch nylon strings.

In any case, I just wanted to make the point that there are varying opinions on the matter even among experts, so it's not necessarily "a dead giveaway of someone who's mainly used to steel string guitars."

[mr. beaumont]

I was taught a little pull up, particularly to make sure the tie was tight at the bridge, was fine.

I was also taught the stretching method many of us use on steel strings, in which the string is fretted in several spots and pulled upward, can leave divots in nylon strings, particularly the wound strings.

I honestly don't know if that's true, I just took my yeacher's word for it. But I can say I've never experienced dented strings or weird intonation issues on a guitar that was previously fine...so I stick with it.

My method of breaking in nylon strings is only changing strings when I have some real time to play and retune a bunch of times right after.

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by kanefsky

It says "especially the nylgut ones" at the beginning, so presumably it's meant to apply to different string formulations. I'm doubtful that it's recommended to stretch every different type of string Aquila makes but forbidden to stretch nylon strings.

Aquila make normal nylon strings too (maybe even with the 2 common versions of musical nylon).

Knowing Mimmo there would surely been a warning with the video if it showed any techniques that should not be tried with strings from the competitors.

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I was also taught the stretching method many of us use on steel strings, in which the string is fretted in several spots and pulled upward, can leave divots in nylon strings, particularly the wound strings.

I wasn't familiar with that method, which seems rather abusive even for steel strings. You're certain you didn't mean the unwound strings btw? If anything this method seems more likely to damage the winding on steel strings, as it will get caught between 2 hard surfaces.

Anyway, I remember seeing a tutorial recommending to stretch the wound strings by running a finger under them over the entire length the avoid distorting of the winding. Seemed like a reasonable argument so that's how I've been doing it since. Mostly on nylon strings because steel strings don't really require stretching as far as I'm concerned.

[Ralphy]

Like others, I am very skeptical of GC techs. Good return policy though. Try digging around this site.

https://www.classicalguitardelcamp.com/

Good luck

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by kanefsky

Aquila knows more about guitar strings than I ever will, or most other string manufacturers for that matter:

I'm very familiar with Mimmo Peruffo and Aquila strings. As much as I love what Mimmo does, do please note that even he does a quick stretch of the string over the entire length in the first 25 seconds of the cited video. There may be a reason for that.

I can also link Mimmo's video for stretching out Aquila Reds where he specifically states that the string MUST be "stretched" at multiple points along the string to prevent uneven stretching which will create intonation and breakage issues.

If a string exhibits uneven intonation on a modern guitar where fret placement issues are seldom seen and the bridge saddle is at the correct location (very few instruments above the $100 Walmart special have placement discrepancies) then it's probably a good bet that the string has unequal mass density along its length. That occasionally happens in a manufactured string but I'll give you 5 guesses as to how that happens a large majority of the time.

Bottom line? Grab that string in the middle, pull it up robustly, tune and wonder why it doesn't intonate well. Repeat as many times as your string budget will allow.

[RJVB]

Let's take a step back here while the OP waits for the replacement C12 to arrive and go back to the beginning:

Originally Posted by georgeMC

I recently purchased my first classical guitar and was pretty surprised at how difficult it was to find a decent one locally. Almost every one I played was either unplayable and/or of questionable sound.

No offense intended, but how well do you know what you're looking for if new to CGs, and which make/models did you try (or what price range)?

Intonation aside, both nylon strings and CGs require an appropriate technique to get the most out of them, and can respond badly to techniques that work fine on steel-string guitars. I'm certain I hear a lot of that in the demos of many crossovers (plasticky, plucky, dry sound). This may be particularly true for cedar-topped guitars as those are probably more suited for a lighter touch.
Personally I'm taking lessons at our local musicschool, which means I get to listen to (very) young kids playing on instruments that are probably mostly well under 500€ and handicapped by their small size and short scale length (there are very few kid-guitar manufacturers). Yet some of those kids get a very decent sound out of their instrument.

Hence my question: exactly what are you looking for? A real classical guitar to play classical music on and that has a traditional sound? But then the question becomes a bit: what kind/period/style of classical music? Are you more after the Spanish sound (e.g. flamenco)? Do you play with or without nails? How important is dynamic range to you, and the capacity to fill a venue with purely acoustic (unplugged) sound?

That latter aspect would be an important reason to get a CG because a priori they're designed and built for that kind of use. Idem if you're after a traditional CG sound (but be aware that has been an evolving concept for the approx. 1.5 centuries that the CG-as-we-know-it exists). For anything else you can probably just as well get any kind of nylon-strung guitar that ticks the boxes for you. The Breedlove ones may be of interest given your current experience with the Cordoba (from what I understand they QC all instruments in the US). Something like the Cort OC8-Nylon may also be worth looking at (marketed as a "modern classical" IIRC; I'd love to sample one myself).

---
About that flat B-string: did it have a strange (probably buzzy) sound on the open string or did the slot look weird? I mentioned compensating at the nut earlier: my first attempt at this was with a bit of toothpick jammed under the (B!) string against the saddle. That fixed an issue where the 5th fret intonated about 5ct sharp with the open string in tune - or the open string 5ct flat when I tuned at the 5th fret. A toothpick must be about 1.5mm in diameter, so the string length was shortened by half that. If we assume that you're a trained musician so able to hear -5ct as flat it would follow that you'd hear flat intonation at the 7th fret if your B string's nut slot was cut about 0.03" too far back. Of course it's also possible that the contact point at the saddle was too far back, I would guess by a similar amount. Neither seem likely because we're still talking about a considerable amount of material to take off (when using hand tools).

[RJVB]

Originally Posted by Rudy4

I can also link Mimmo's video for stretching out Aquila Reds where he specifically states that the string MUST be "stretched" at multiple points along the string to prevent uneven stretching which will create intonation and breakage issues.

You mean one of their ukulele references? I'm not certain how relevant it is to compare strings for that (ahem, toy ) instrument to guitar strings!

Stretching a string by pulling it upwards orthogonal to its resting length and at the centre point should be equivalent to tuning it sharp unless you use a very thin implement to pull it.

the bridge saddle is at the correct location (very few instruments above the $100 Walmart special have placement discrepancies)

FWIW, my Cordoba lemon had the entire bridge installed askew visibly (a good 1° counterclockwise, so in line with the severely sharp intonation on the top 3 or 4 strings). That was a >900€ instrument.

[mr. beaumont]

Originally Posted by RJVB

Aquila make normal nylon strings too (maybe even with the 2 common versions of musical nylon).

Knowing Mimmo there would surely been a warning with the video if it showed any techniques that should not be tried with strings from the competitors.



I wasn't familiar with that method, which seems rather abusive even for steel strings. You're certain you didn't mean the unwound strings btw? If anything this method seems more likely to damage the winding on steel strings, as it will get caught between 2 hard surfaces.

Anyway, I remember seeing a tutorial recommending to stretch the wound strings by running a finger under them over the entire length the avoid distorting of the winding. Seemed like a reasonable argument so that's how I've been doing it since. Mostly on nylon strings because steel strings don't really require stretching as far as I'm concerned.

I've used it for years with steel strings, and never had a problem. It's definitely an issue for the wound strings with a nylon set, the winding material seems to be much more prone to denting. The plain strings are actually pretty strong. I discovered this after seeing Bireli Lagrene play a nylon string in a Django-style jazz environment, so I tried it too...after one set of hard play and vibrato, my wound strings were a mess...the frets can definitely do a number on them.

In actuality, there's no "stretching" involved in steel strings, as steel isn't elastic...it's really more of just making sure the string is seated well against the bridgeplate and tight at the tuner...

Nylon strings do actually stretch, but you need to be careful of how you do it, I suppose. I like the play and retune method better than the "tune a little bit sharp" method because I do find the strings eventually want to settle in somewhere, and I don't want that settling place to be out of tune!