#46
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As an aside, I greatly enjoyed your videos shot at Turnstone and am more than a bit smitten by Roise's work, especially her builds with unique species from the UK (eg: bog wood). If you do not mind the question, how would you spec out to her a guitar that addresses the big sound from a small body conundrum. Cheers, David |
#47
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I found Froggy Bottom, and am an unabashed fan. They are impossibly full and loud, and break every notion conventional wisdom would lead you to believe about small bodied guitars. A C or H12, as already recommended, will amaze you. So will a P. I’ve owned an H12 and a P12, and still have an L (the smallest model). The folks at FB aren’t the only ones who can do this. You’re much less likely to find something in a production guitar, but there are a bunch of luthiers that can build a small guitar with a full sound. I have a Rein 00 that is amazing, for example. Froggy Bottom are just more readily available on the used market at somewhat reasonable (but not cheap) prices. You’re looking at $4k and up now, depending on the condition; and $4k isn’t as easily found as it once was. More common is the $5-6k range (for near mint condition). I’ve found that the wood doesn’t matter really. It’s the builder. You’re not going to get mega-bass just because a guitar uses rosewood, for example; but it usually sounds like it adds a little because the mids aren’t quite as prominent. Listen to a D18 (Mahogany) and D28 (Rosewood) blind, and the rosewood doesn’t really make a big difference to the amount of bass. I’ll be hauled off for heresy in a moment or two... |
#48
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I suspect that my conversation with Rosie might be different to anyone else's as we all look for different things in a guitar. That said we would look at scale length, body shape and size and fretboard length first of all before addressing wood combinations. I would only approach a luthier with a pretty clear brief of what I am looking for informed by personal experience and preferences. That said, if I was going to have that conversation with Rosie at some point it would doubtless involve a 12 fret neck, 25" scale (or whatever in mm as she's metric ugh) around her 15" TM shape. Maybe dreadnought depth. No cutaway, or bevels or soundport. Slot headstock. That's how I'd start that conversation with anyone really. Intent -> Specs + Measurements -> Materials All the best M
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www.michaelwattsguitar.com Album Recording Diary Skype Lessons Luthier Stories YouTube iTunes Guitars by Jason Kostal, Strings by Elixir, Gefell Mics and a nail buffer. |
#49
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Best to you. David |
#50
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My pleasure! I'm always happy to help.
M
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www.michaelwattsguitar.com Album Recording Diary Skype Lessons Luthier Stories YouTube iTunes Guitars by Jason Kostal, Strings by Elixir, Gefell Mics and a nail buffer. |
#51
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Umm...not really. . Obliged for yours. David |
#52
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In have a Froggy 000 12 fret cutaway (H12c) and it's a perfect guitar for me. I don't play bluegrass well but have used it in an acoustic trio (mando, banjo) and it was not overpowered by the others. I use classical right hand technique and the guitar sings. Loves a good pick too. Just something to consider. hans
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1971 Papazian (swiss spruce/braz RW) 1987 Lowden L32p (sitka/ind RW) 1992 Froggy Bottom F (19th cent. german spruce/koa) 2000 Froggy Bottom H12c (adir/ind RW) 2016 Froggy Bottom K mod (adir/madrose; my son's) 2010 Voyage-Air VAOM-2C http://www.soundclick.com/hanstunes (recorded on Froggy H12c) |
#53
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The Huss & Dalton CM can be had in both 12 or 14 fret configurations with or without a cutaway. Deep body but smaller than a dread. Might be worth a look? Best of luck!
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Jim Dogs Welcome......People Tolerated! |
#54
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I've watched/listened to a lot of Ben Wilborn's videos and been a silent, secret fan of his for a while now. I'd absolutely love to get one of his instruments and hope, one day, that I will. Holy Cow that one is a beautiful guitar.
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Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Mark Twain |
#55
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Yairi make some lovely, small 12 fret guitars with rosewood or mahogany back and sides. They might well do for you.
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Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Mark Twain |
#56
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David, Somewhere I thought you mentioned you’d acquired a Froggy H12. These are generally fairly loud and very comfortable to play.
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#57
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Martin CEO 7.
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#58
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Yes, I did. And it is all that. It is very good to know that what I have is what many have suggested is mighty for its size. Out of curiosity, I did a quick and dirty comparison between the Bourgeois Slope S and Froggy Bottom H12 to confirm my perception that the bigger body makes the bigger sound, because that is how I hear it. Not a very scientific method, but close enough. Both guitars have recent strings, though the FB have gotten more use. I set a decibel meter about 18" from the tone hole and played a single low E string multiple times to try to intuit an identical amount of energy. I then took readings from both guitars. To my ear, the Bourgeois sounded noticeably louder, just as it always does. But not to the meter. Much to my surprise, the Froggy Bottom put out basically the same volume as the Bourgeois despite its difference in body size and the fact that it has a 25" scale. I reproduced the "experiment" several times. And got the same results. The two guitars produced basically the same sound pressure with the basically the same amount of energy applied. The limits of the test are obvious. I cannot exert a precisely reproducible amount of force with each strum. And the guitars were not precisely the same distance from the meter at all times. Nevertheless, the results were consistent. That said, I did not exert anything close to maximal force to push the limits of each guitar. And it is possible that the Bourgeois is capable of reaching a louder volume than the FB with more pressure. And that led me to wonder what the benchmark for volume should be when we discuss how "loud" a guitar is. Is it how loud it is in the course of normal use (its efficiency), or what the potential volume is with maximal pressure applied. And beyond that, how does the signature of the sound from the guitar affect our perception of the volume. To be sure, the FB and Bourgeois "sound" very different, even if they are producing sound at the same pressure. Does a guitar that emphasizes primary tones vs. overtones appear louder. Anyways, I am most grateful for your interest in this thread, for helping me work my way through this and reach a rather confounding result. Beyond the science, I am grateful to have works of art that are beautiful to look at and to listen to. David |
#59
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Measuring the SPL at a point out front of the guitar is a number for comparison, but is that what's important to you. Are you more concerned about the sound level delivered to the player (how it wraps around) or to an audience (how it projects and/or fills the space)? Or are you concerned about it's volume at a distance used for recording microphones?
The other big thing for me is whether tone is being compromised in order to provide volume.
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Chuck 2012 Carruth 12-fret 000 in Pernambuco and Adi 2010 Poling Sierra in Cuban Mahogany and Lutz 2015 Posch 13-fret 00 in Indian Rosewood and Adi |
#60
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The H12 I owned sounded “bigger” and had more bass than my son’s Huss and Dalton DM. I can only think of two guitars that would run with it: A Goodall TR-000 I ran across in Germany, which was even richer sounding than the Frog, and a Bourgeois 000 that was as rich but a little more mellow. I had an HD28 that was the mother of all bass cannons, but that’s back to dreads. I think you’re going to be looking at some of the more expensive luthiers (and their wait lists, if buying new). I would suggest a trip to some of the better boutiques - The Music Emporium, Dream Guitars, and Guitar Gallery to name a few. A plane ticket and a hotel room will be money well invested at this price point. If he doesn’t chime in, I would PM Bobby Swanson (SuperB23 on the forum). He’s probably had more quality guitars pass through his hands than most here. He might be able to steer you to something, and have the personal experience to back it up. |