Confused about mics

[mennace]

I would like to record to my h4n. Confused about what type of mic to purchase . If I am recording sound FROM MY AMP what type of mic to use vs recording directly from my acoustic( not using the x y mic on the h4n) can I use the same for vocals? I am probably going to purchase 2 one for vocals and one for recording directly from my guitar, but I like to place one in front of the amp speaker as well. Any suggestions ?

[Herb Hunter]

Originally Posted by mennace

I would like to record to my h4n. Confused about what type of mic to purchase . If I am recording sound FROM MY AMP what type of mic to use vs recording directly from my acoustic( not using the x y mic on the h4n) can I use the same for vocals? I am probably going to purchase 2 one for vocals and one for recording directly from my guitar, but I like to place one in front of the amp speaker as well. Any suggestions ?

Generally, for acoustic guitar recording, small diaphragm condenser microphones are used for their accuracy and because mic placement is less critical. These can also be used for vocals with good results. However, vocalists tend to prefer large diaphragm microphones. Typically, the large diaphragm mics though quieter, are not as accurate and are more sensitive to microphone placement but they may make a singer's voice sound better than it actually is; hence their popularity with vocalists. (One model of large diaphragm microphone may suit a particular voice better than another.)

For electric guitar amplifier recording, a small diaphragm condenser mics is less likely to be over-driven than a large diaphragm one. The Shure SM57, though a dynamic mic, is probably used more than any other mic for recording the output of electric guitar amps.

How much were you planning to spend on microphones?

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by mennace

I would like to record to my h4n. Confused about what type of mic to purchase . If I am recording sound FROM MY AMP what type of mic to use vs recording directly from my acoustic( not using the x y mic on the h4n) can I use the same for vocals? I am probably going to purchase 2 one for vocals and one for recording directly from my guitar, but I like to place one in front of the amp speaker as well. Any suggestions ?

Not to contradict or offend anyone, but the audible difference between mics is often (in my humble opinion) wildly overstated in internet discussions.

50 years ago a Shure SM57 was an expensive mic, it cost over 300 gallons of gasoline!!!! So when you bought a consumer level recorder and wanted a reasonably priced mic, say a 50 gallon of gasoline mic, you got a piece of junk with carbon granule transducer, bandwidth from 200 to 4000 hz, 10% thd.

Today a mic very roughly as good as an SM57 costs well under $1.00 if you buy them in large enough quantities. It's just a little capsule and you have to wire it up and put it in a housing, but the mic comes to you complete and ready to install.

This means that complete, fancy looking mics with remarkably good quality are available at very low cost. And the audible difference between a $100 mic and a $1000 mic is amazingly small and subtle. Take a moment and listen to four clips from mics ranging in price from $150 to over $1500: http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/...ur-more-clips/

Recording, like any other skill, takes practice. The X-Y mics on the H4n are good, and you can learn a lot by doing lots of recording with them, placing them in different locations, trying different rooms, and most important, learning about proper level setting. With that experience you'll be able to make much better choices for your mic locker.

If you (like me) are just interested in mics and want to try some different ones, I really recommend starting with at least two switchable large diaphragm condensers. This sort of mic was once the mark of a pro studio - after all, it cost as much as a new car, so if you had one you were clearly serious. Now you can buy them for the cot of a tuneup on your car. Not comparable in quality of manufacture, not "the same" sound, but the same functionality. This kind of mic gives you multiple patterns, so you can use different kinds of stereo arrays, and use the patterns to solve problems like recording a vocal and guitar at the same time. I have a CAD M179, a pair of RODEs, an AT4050, and a Shure KSM44 and they all work well. The CAD feels as inexpensive as its price suggests, but it has a continuous pattern adjustment so it's even more flexible than the three pattern mics like the Shure or AT.

Fran

[RBS]

I have a beautiful Stratocaster from 1956 that just drips with killer Strat tone. I'm also very fortunate to have a few other high end guitars that are great sounding and playing instruments. Funny thing is, when I plug them into a cheap little Gorilla amp most all of that tone vanishes and you could A/B with an off the rack Squire Strat and think what a waste of money.

As in the test above, the preamp on your Zoom will greatly negate the differences or benefits of a high end mic.

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by RBS

I have a beautiful Stratocaster from 1956 that just drips with killer Strat tone. I'm also very fortunate to have a few other high end guitars that are great sounding and playing instruments. Funny thing is, when I plug them into a cheap little Gorilla amp most all of that tone vanishes and you could A/B with an off the rack Squire Strat and think what a waste of money.

As in the test above, the preamp on your Zoom will greatly negate the differences or benefits of a high end mic.

I often read similar statements. I'd ask if you could provide a couple of level matched same performance audio clips that demonstrate the horrors inflicted on audio by an "unworthy" preamp.

In your example of an electric guitar (with high impedance bandwidth limited pickups) the amp is part of the instrument system and includes a transducer of its own. How does that tone-dripping Strat sound if you don't plug it in?

A recording system preamp does something fundamentally different. First the transducer is wide bandwidth and low impedance, second the preamp design goal is transparency, and third the output is a line level signal, not a speaker level power output.

Here are two same-performance clips, fairly well level matched. One is done with the H4n, the other with a Shure KSM141->John Hardy M1->LynxTwo-C chain. These clips are from a review of the H4n at Homebrewed Music: http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/2009/...-the-zoom-h4n/

If you crank them up to a volume much higher than normal listening level, I'm sure you can hear some noise in the H4n clip that is not in the other, but does the difference jump out at you when you listen at normal levels?

http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/audio/20090307-t.wav
http://www.homebrewedmusic.com/audio/20090307-u.wav

Fran

[Ty Ford]

"I often read similar statements. I'd ask if you could provide a couple of level matched same performance audio clips that demonstrate the horrors inflicted on audio by an "unworthy" preamp."

Chris,

My experience has been that the AKG C414 (which has 5-7 different models) have issues with preamps. It's not a transformer thing because GML preamps don't use trannys and C414 sound great through them. There are many preamps through which the C414 sounds spitty and brittle.

The Neumann TLM 103 is similar in that it too is picky about preamps. Again, the GML works much better than, say a Mackie VLZ XDR.

Other situations exist, but I won't belabor the point. These are not just audio apparitions only I am able to perceive. I know others who would agree with me about these two situations. They would also contribute their own examples of "preamps make a difference."

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Fran Guidry]

Ty, you've been doing this a long time, and I've read many times your description of these issues. Do you have any clips that illustrate the problem that you could share with us?

Fran

[Ty Ford]

I have no reason to keep crappy audio around. You'll just have to take my word on it, or choose not to.

Several other preamps that I have had personal experience with are the John Hardy, The Jensen, Millennia Media, Grace and Amek/Neve 9098. They all make a difference.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[Herb Hunter]

The opening post asked for recommendations on the types of microphones to consider for a digital recorder. I don't see how starting a discussion on the merits of different preamps is going to help him determine what microphones types to select for his recorder.

[alecsandor]

Hello, the best way would be to buy a decent condenser microphone (Audio Technica maybe) that you can use to record your vocals and your acoustic guitar directly + a dynamic microphone (Shure SM57 is a pretty good option) for capturing the sound of your electric guitar from the front of the amp.

I've written a more complete article about recording acoustic guitar tracks and vocals on my blog: http://www.guitaristic.net/recording...-guitar-voice/ (there are also some condenser microphone recommendations + links).

Good luck and inspiration!

Alec

[Ty Ford]

I agree w/Alec. While better preamps and going line in to the Hn4 may improve the sound, that's a whole 'nother basket of wax, there's no way of knowing if the Hn4 was designed to take advantage of that.

SM57 on the amp.

The mic of choice for vocals is wide open. For beginners, an SM58 is not a bad choice.

Do you expect to record vocals while you play guitar? That'll be a little more challenging because the amp will probably bleed into your vocal mic. While not a deal killer, if you're after a really tight sound, you'll have to put the amp in another room while you record.

Regards,

Ty Ford

[markwayne]

Well, since the 57 and the 58 are the same mic fitted with a different wind screen, why not just get a pair of 57s and put a popper stopper between yourself and the 57 while singing? The great thing is that you a couple of the most widely used mics in the world to start your mic cabinet with.

If you are not recording vocal and guitar at the same time, try setting the second mic up a few feet back from your amp and mix a little room sound to taste. A 57 shoved up against a 12" speaker has never been my favorite electric tone.

[Ty Ford]

Wayne, because the head grille itself on a mic creates part of the sound signature. Sound actually bounces around inside the headgrille; mostly high frequencies due to the shorter wavelength.

And, btw, most SM 57 and SM58 sound better if you put a 600 Ohm resistor across pins 2 and 3. The best way to do that is on the other end of the cable; the make XLR end, because there's more room in the XLR connector.

Regards,

Ty Ford

"Good audio isn't easy and seldom happens by accident."

[Digit]

What is your budget? Without that info it's impossible to even suggest...