#1
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Language learning
Has anyone here taken up the challenge of learning a foreign language?
I recently restarted my attempt to learn French and in the process discovered how much the explosion of YouTube content appears to have completely changed the way foreign languages are studied. There must be at least 20 channels created by polyglots who describe how they learned 20 languages. People are battling over the efficacy of the "input" method vs. the "output" method, as well as how many hours of study it takes to reach fluency. It's like listening to the Taylor vs. Martin debate all over again. Anybody here got any experience? |
#2
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Irrespective of the method or medium used to learn, my own experience is that there needs to be a firm reason to go through the process, then it becomes less important how you achieve it.
I learned French then Spanish to live and work in France, Argentina and Spain, and German to live and work in Switzerland, but unlike French and Spanish was not ‘forced’ to use it all the time, so my effort waned. Since retiring I have wanted to learn Italian and even though it has similar roots to French and Spanish I have not stuck the course. I put this down to the lack of necessity - after all I have the time... Fluency for me can only come from immersion and therefore constant use - hard to do unless actually there. |
#3
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Like guitar practice, there are lots of opinions about what is best, but it really comes down to finding (or creating) enjoyment in the practice, and putting in the time and repetitions.
I think a combination of doing a program or class, and adding in more practice and exposure to the language is a good approach. I don’t have an opinion about which program or classes might be best. I do think it is useful to watch/listen to French language programs and movies every day (nightly news in French, the series, “Call my agent”, etc. ), and to read some books (Camus’s L’Etranger) or magazines (“Match”) that are in French everyday. Try to find someone who will spend time with you several times a week and agree that the two of you will only speak French. |
#4
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I took a couple years of French in middle school and then in 2018 decided to get back to it. I started with a couple Community College courses, then Covid hit and that halted. I dabbled with Duolingo and YouTube, and a textbook but wasn't making much progress. Then early this year my CC teacher started doing in person lessons again and I've been working with her once a week for an hour. We speak only French for an hour and she provides an email summary after the lesson of the things we discussed with grammar pointers. Between lessons, I supplement with Duolingo. I also try to do podcasts in the car and also pull up some YouTube videos but 90% is Duolingo and in person. I think I am making good progress now.
My goal is to travel to France and Europe soon, and at some point I would like to do a 2 week immersion program in France. But the main inspiration has been my youngest son. He learned Japanese in HS and spent a year on an exchange program. He just graduated college and is leaving to teach English in Japan. I admire his hard work in learning a difficult language and want to learn a new language just for my own academic challenge and satisfaction. At this point, I think I could function at a basic level in France but I do believe you have to immerse to truly learn the language.
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EMTSteve a couple guitars too many |
#5
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The most effective way to learn a foreign language is to use it. Using it means: speaking it, as in conversing with someone or in a group. That’s the best, and quickest, way to improve. Next come reading/writing it and hearing it.
These latter two options, especially hearing it, (i.e. through podcasts, news apps, films etc…)have become much easier in the internet age. But you’ll be best off it you can do all of these activities in one form or another. French happens to be my Mother tongue, and German is my other (fluent) foreign language other than English. I make efforts to maintain all three by using them as best, and often, as I can. Speaking, reading and hearing French is easy through family, books and the internet. German is more challenging since I’ve retired, but I read it and hear it every day, and still communicate verbally and in writing on a regular basis with German friends. It’s not quite full immersion for all three languages, but it’s sufficiently adequate to maintain fluency. And that’s my point. You have to work at it. But it's a pleasurable endeavor and a fun hobby in retirement, so stick with your goal. Not sure what stage you are in your French learning. You imply that you’re not a beginner, so finding an outlet where you can use it in conversation would be your best option imo to turbo charge your re-entry.
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Best regards, Andre Golf is pretty simple. It's just not that easy. - Paul Azinger "It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so." – Mark Twain http://www.youtube.com/user/Gitfiddlemann |
#6
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I learned a little Spanish in the Navy stationed in Central America and Puerto Rico. I took classes offered through the Navy. Twenty years later I was tasked to set up a Latino outreach initiative at work. I spoke a lot of Spanish over twelve years in that capacity and got pretty good at it. We moved down to Puerto Rico after I retired and lived there eight years. I mostly spoke Spanish there as most of my neighbors spoke Spanish in conversation. Back up here in Iowa I have to eat a lot of Mexican and watch a lot of Telemundo to stay up with it and I'm still getting slow. Could be old age though.
The more you are around it the better you get. It takes a long time to start thinking in in a foreign language. You get fluent when you start seeing images in your head when people are talking to you instead of just hearing words. If you have to convert everything you hear to English before you can follow the conversation you're lost.
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Please don't take me too seriously, I don't. Taylor GS Mini Mahogany. Guild D-20 Gretsch Streamliner Morgan Monroe MNB-1w https://www.minnesotabluegrass.org/ |
#7
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Krashen argues that language is not learned, it's acquired. Learning is a conscious process, and it underlies traditional language approaches which rely heavily on memorization and grammar. Acquisition, on the other hand, is a subconscious process that is unaffected by learning. Training in this method involves listening and reading. Speaking results from listening and emerges late in the language acquisition process as does grammar. The Krashen "acquisition-learning" method is what I'm now pursuing. The method involves listening to what is called "comprehensible input". No emphasis is put on speaking. In fact, Krashen argues that you can't speak your way to fluency. You simply focus on listening; speaking emerges. The ideal comprehensible input consists of content that is slightly above your level of comprehension. You supposedly learn the additional unknown content by its context within the known content. [see the Wikipedia entry for "Input hypothesis" for more detail] This is a slow process, and students following this method will impress no one with their linguistic ability. What I know so far is that I'm able to understand things that I have no conscious sense of understanding...if that makes any sense. The challenge is to find content that is slightly above your level of understanding but not totally incomprehensible. At any rate, this is an entirely new method for language acquisition, and it suits me as an old guy whose memory is fading. |
#8
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When we moved to the San Diego I decided to learn Spanish with various internet and YouTube programs. I soon gave it up because I did not need to know the language to get around. Everybody speaks English.
Except, I have noticed, the majority of store clerks, bank tellers, and other entry level jobs that interact with the public are all dual-lingual Spanish and English. When I volunteered as a poll worker I was surprised to find that they need Chinese, Vietnamese, and Filipino speakers as poll workers too. Makes me wish I had stuck with it, even though at my stage of life I do not need it.
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----------------------------- Jim Adams Collings OM Guild 12 String Mark V Classical Martin Dreadnaught Weber Mandolin |
#9
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I agree that languages aren't taught very well academically in the US; relying on memorization and learning grammar are not very effective tools. But in my view and past experience the bridge from hearing it to speaking it requires a much more interactive approach than just listening and reading. You have to bite the bullet at some point, i.e. get your hands dirty and get corrected on mistakes, sometimes embarrassing ones, before it really takes off exponentially towards comfort and, eventually, fluency. Maybe I’m too old fashioned! But I wish you success with it!
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Best regards, Andre Golf is pretty simple. It's just not that easy. - Paul Azinger "It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so." – Mark Twain http://www.youtube.com/user/Gitfiddlemann |
#10
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I think the idea of acquisition of language makes sense. In early development, we clearly acquire it that way. We probably are primed for the “acquisition “ of language at our pre-verbal developmental stage and could acquire more than one if opportunities presented.
As an adult, it probably still would work, ideally in an immersed environment were nobody spoke your language. It would be slow, and frustrating, slower in a less immersive environment. However, starting with vocabulary and grammar, as inefficient as it is, helps us step closer, but won’t get you far on its own. That is why all that high school language class did was lay some ground rules without any actual functional language. I learned some Spanish the rote way, but it was limited. Then I wound up in a situation where I was one of two even remotely bilingual people in a large group of Spanish and non-Spanish speakers. In a week, I consolidated my Spanish enough to translate and really understand and express. Not fluently, but passably. Another 6 months living among Spanish speaking peoples and I was fluent. Dreaming in Spanish. I rarely speak Spanish now, haven’t for 30 years, but I can still have a rough conversation and even get through an office (doctor here) visit in a pinch, if the Spanish speaker is willing to slow it down and work with me. So it stuck better than expected. |
#11
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My experience is that language learning has various components, and that you can make significant progress in one component while making very little progress in others. For me, "time on task" has been the most important factor in improvement.
I have been learning Spanish for over a decade now, and while I can read Spanish fluently and usually understand spoken Spanish fairly well, my speaking ability is quite limited and I have no experience writing it. The reason for my unbalanced Spanish skills is that I have spent roughly 85% of my time on Spanish reading and have read many dozens if not hundreds of Spanish novels and plays at this point; I have spent roughly 10% of my time watching Spanish movies or listening to Spanish audio (e.g., I listen to Spanish-language radio stations in my car); and I have probably spent less than 5% of my time speaking Spanish, and 0% of my time writing it. My main reason for learning Spanish was to be able to read Spanish literature in its original language, and this I have achieved. But you can read Spanish literature and watch Spanish movies at home; getting actual practice speaking Spanish is typically less convenient. I have some experience speaking Spanish (I have spent some time in Spanish-speaking countries, and even done a 3-week language course in Peru), but not nearly enough to give me the kind of fluency you need to carry on reasonable conversations with native speakers. I hope to spend more time in Spanish-speaking countries when I retire, and to improve my speaking skills. In the meantime, I am enjoying my reading. listening to the radio, and watching the occasional movie or video. As the above indicates, I have done lots of "input" work but little "output" work. I think "input" work (and especially reading as much as possible) is very good for developing vocabulary and a "feel" for grammar (as opposed to studying formal grammar rules, which is also useful). But if your main goal is speaking Spanish, reading a lot will help in some ways (e.g., learning vocabulary is generally useful in all contexts), but will not get you to speaking proficiency - unless you are one of those people who have a natural talent for languages (which I am not). Most people need to spend a substantial amount of time practicing output to get good at it, and this is most likely to occur if you are living in a Spanish-speaking country. |
#12
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When my son lived in New York City I went shopping with my wife and the young lady working in a store was speaking Spanish to a customer. Being she seemed nice and asked me if she could help me when she was done, I commented that it was probably handy in her job to speak two languages. She told me she spoke four well enough to converse with customers and that everybody working there spoke more than two. Wow, that's quite the job requirement here in the US, speak multiple languages.
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Please don't take me too seriously, I don't. Taylor GS Mini Mahogany. Guild D-20 Gretsch Streamliner Morgan Monroe MNB-1w https://www.minnesotabluegrass.org/ |
#13
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#14
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I’ve been learning French as a side hobby (meaning: less important than music and art) for five or six years. I love it.
I totally agree with Rod, you should define your goal. There are different ways of being proficient, for different reasons. Want to have lots of conversations with people in the street? Or do you want to read literature? Two different points of emphasis which overlap to some degree. The great news is: Wow, there are so many methods now! The bad news is: Wow, there are so many methods now! Same as with music. Very easy pitfall is to take a lifetime sampling tour without settling into an approach you can stick to. Also like music: Getting to the advanced beginner stage is fairly easy. After that, you really need to commit to get out of the low intermediate plateau. |
#15
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This is the rub, as an English speaker. Most of the world, at least in cities, knows your language and there’s not a huge need outside of some kind of specialization or personal passion, to learn a foreign language. But if you’ve got the personal passion, or a specialized goal or context, it’s all good. It’s such a wonderful way of opening up a new world. |