Back to a spaced pair

[TBman]

Back where I started, but with the mics in closer at 15", one at the 10th fret, the other at the bridge. I recorded with my Guild D-120, which isn't as boomy as my Avalon, but I still had to do a hipass plus some subtractive eq. The mics are the AT-2035 and I used the built-in Hipass feature. I enabled downloading for each track.

Soundclip with Eq:



This is the sound clip without eq:



To record my Avalon I might be better off using my small condensers. I'll have to do a comparison one night.

[Doug Young]

Sounds better to me than the split placement one, and the one here without EQ sounds better than the EQ'd one. Still lots of room sound, there's just a lack of presence, sort of distant sounding. In an untreated room, I'd start at 8 inches away. Also sounds like you're holding back, playing very quietly? Hard to tell, could just be the distant/room effect. My impression is you're being blocked by bad room acoustics, which is pretty hard to work around.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Sounds better to me than the split placement one, and the one here without EQ sounds better than the EQ'd one. Still lots of room sound, there's just a lack of presence, sort of distant sounding. In an untreated room, I'd start at 8 inches away. Also sounds like you're holding back, playing very quietly? Hard to tell, could just be the distant/room effect. My impression is you're being blocked by bad room acoustics, which is pretty hard to work around.

Thanks Doug, I'll try 8". Yes I was playing softly, I'll lean into it more next time. I think I'm doomed to these mediocre recordings though as room treatments aren't coming my way for a while (unless the close mic'ing works a miracle, )

I don't really hear what the room sounds like in this recording, but I do notice it doesn't have the clarity as yours, Ricks, Fred's and Peter's recordings. Is it the room reflections that is wrecking the tone?

[rick-slo]

Barry, make your unequalized recording available for download in its original format. May have potential with some tweaks.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

Barry, make your unequalized recording available for download in its original format. May have potential with some tweaks.

Thanks Rick, it is downloadable.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by TBman

I don't really hear what the room sounds like in this recording, but I do notice it doesn't have the clarity as yours, Ricks, Fred's and Peter's recordings. Is it the room reflections that is wrecking the tone?

Room sound doesn't show up as an echo in all but the worst cases. It shows up as tonal problems - short room reflections basically cause phase cancellation and modes cause resonances and harsh sounds (and then people try to EQ it, which doesn't really work). But mostly it shows up as a lack of clarity - a feeling of distance. Think of a small flashlight in a pitch dark room - that's how music is in a room with good acoustics. Now take that same flashlight outside on a bright day, and you can barely see it. That's music in bad acoustics.

I'd mic as close as you possibly can. The AEA N22 is an interesting example of a mic designed with home recording in mind, designed to be able to be placed *close*, like a few inches, literally 2 or 3. That's because they know you need to be able to mic really close with most home acoustics. But you should be able to make your mics work. If there's too much bass from proximity, you can always roll the low end off with EQ. Try different rooms of the house and different locations within the rooms. A typical furnished living room with drapes and furniture, maybe some book cases, carpet, etc, shouldn't be too bad with close micing.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Room sound doesn't show up as an echo in all but the worst cases. It shows up as tonal problems - short room reflections basically cause phase cancellation and modes cause resonances and harsh sounds (and then people try to EQ it, which doesn't really work). But mostly it shows up as a lack of clarity - a feeling of distance. Think of a small flashlight in a pitch dark room - that's how music is in a room with good acoustics. Now take that same flashlight outside on a bright day, and you can barely see it. That's music in bad acoustics.

I'd mic as close as you possibly can. The AEA N22 is an interesting example of a mic designed with home recording in mind, designed to be able to be placed *close*, like a few inches, literally 2 or 3. That's because they know you need to be able to mic really close with most home acoustics. But you should be able to make your mics work. If there's too much bass from proximity, you can always roll the low end off with EQ. Try different rooms of the house and different locations within the rooms. A typical furnished living room with drapes and furniture, maybe some book cases, carpet, etc, shouldn't be too bad with close micing.

Thanks Doug. The bedroom I'm in is probably my best room to use as its shielded more or less from the rest of household noise. At some point I'll make a couple of 2x4 sound traps to face the guitar. I'll try different mic distances and see what happens.

Would small condensers be better for close mic'ing?

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by TBman

The bedroom I'm in is... shielded more or less from the rest of household noise.

...which is a completely different issue than room acoustics. Sound*proofing*, or otherwise eliminating outside environmental noise, is important, but requires completely different procedures from eliminating poor room acoustics (and tbh is much more difficult).

Don't confuse the two. Find a way to minimize outside/household noise (record when everyone is out, or late at night, or turn off appliances or HVAC if you can--we've even discussed flipping breakers!).

But even if you've got a completely silent environment, you still have to treat *within* your space for reflections of your guitar off the walls and objects in the room. That's what most of the threads here deal with, talking about bass traps and acoustic panels and such.

And unfortunately, the room with the least environmental noise is not always the same as the one with the best "internal" acoustics.

[TBman]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

...which is a completely different issue than room acoustics. Sound*proofing*, or otherwise eliminating outside environmental noise, is important, but requires completely different procedures from eliminating poor room acoustics (and tbh is much more difficult).

Don't confuse the two. Find a way to minimize outside/household noise (record when everyone is out, or late at night, or turn off appliances or HVAC if you can--we've even discussed flipping breakers!).

But even if you've got a completely silent environment, you still have to treat *within* your space for reflections of your guitar off the walls and objects in the room. That's what most of the threads here deal with, talking about bass traps and acoustic panels and such.

And unfortunately, the room with the least environmental noise is not always the same as the one with the best "internal" acoustics.

Thanks. .....

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Chipotle

...which is a completely different issue than room acoustics. Sound*proofing*, or otherwise eliminating outside environmental noise, is important, but requires completely different procedures from eliminating poor room acoustics (and tbh is much more difficult).

Don't confuse the two. Find a way to minimize outside/household noise (record when everyone is out, or late at night, or turn off appliances or HVAC if you can--we've even discussed flipping breakers!).

But even if you've got a completely silent environment, you still have to treat *within* your space for reflections of your guitar off the walls and objects in the room. That's what most of the threads here deal with, talking about bass traps and acoustic panels and such.

And unfortunately, the room with the least environmental noise is not always the same as the one with the best "internal" acoustics.

Partially true. Avoiding outside noise does not decrease room acoustic issues of sounds originating within the room (i.e. the guitar is this case). However treating the room acoustically with absorption material such as rockwool panels on the walls reduces to a fair degree whatever outside noise there is from reaching the microphones.

[RodB]

Hi Barry,

I too prefer the original recording without EQ.

Bringing the mics in closer will help, and maybe shift both a bit? Behind bridge and 12th/14th fret?

I have the same impression as Doug, that your playing is rather restrained, that you are holding back. More assertion, more initial attack and volume in the notes. Far be it for me to critique your actual playing - I really like the way you play, very musical.

As an aside, apart from recording I find that my A30 in particular doesn't show it's tone potential without plenty of power from the plucking hand.

[Wrighty]

Barry, I feel your pain..

Some thoughts;

1. Given your acoustic issues, why not dedicate one day at a weekend to making 5 or 6 60cmx60cm movable panels - it is super easy. I just bought a big pack of the Rockwool, then ordered some cheap fabric and some glue and had at it - they don’t look amazing and have no frame but are very useful and can be stuck anywhere. You may be surprised at the results.

2. Doug’s point re playing is one he made to me - play with more attack and make sure the notes hit the mics with some energy. It offers up more clarity and projection in the recording - I feel this is a big one for you as your sound lacks a little attack.

3. Definitely mic closer and if needs be then just reduce the 80-110hz a few DB’s to taste.

Good luck and let me know if you need any help with the panels (Pics etc)

Cheers

Peter

[TBman]

Originally Posted by Wrighty

Barry, I feel your pain..

Some thoughts;

1. Given your acoustic issues, why not dedicate one day at a weekend to making 5 or 6 60cmx60cm movable panels - it is super easy. I just bought a big pack of the Rockwool, then ordered some cheap fabric and some glue and had at it - they don’t look amazing and have no frame but are very useful and can be stuck anywhere. You may be surprised at the results.

2. Doug’s point re playing is one he made to me - play with more attack and make sure the notes hit the mics with some energy. It offers up more clarity and projection in the recording - I feel this is a big one for you as your sound lacks a little attack.

3. Definitely mic closer and if needs be then just reduce the 80-110hz a few DB’s to taste.

Good luck and let me know if you need any help with the panels (Pics etc)

Cheers

Peter

Thanks Peter. What size panels did you make? I was thinking 60 cm by 120 cm and make maybe 2 or 3 of them. I was thinking making a 2.5 cm x 10 cm frame for them so they could be free standing.

I was asking around on another forum and someone said to flip the mattress up next time I record. Duh! I might try that tonite.

[Wrighty]

I made 60x60x20 panels as free standing but I have some larger ones too.

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

However treating the room acoustically with absorption material such as rockwool panels on the walls reduces to a fair degree whatever outside noise there is from reaching the microphones.

To a point, and depending on how you use the panels. If you make a little cocoon of panels/blankets etc. it can help filter a bit of outside noise. If the panels are fewer or on the walls, they won't help much at all with the external noise coming in.

Sound from "leaky" windows or doors, air ducts, or simply conducted through the house, like traffic noise, others in the house banging or yelling, or HVAC systems can be hard to reduce without a more effort than just a few panels. I live in an old house with leaky single-pane windows on a busy-ish street. I'm glad most of my stuff has vocals/strumming/other instruments; if I tried to record all quiet fingerstyle like Barry, I'd go mad. But I'm not about to screw wood or plexiglass panels over everything.

And RodB makes a good point that playing softly definitely isn't to your benefit. In fact, even a quiet, gentle piece doesn't necessarily need to be played tentatively. A wise instructor once told me, "Make sure you are performing for the back row." Playing more assertively, with more volume, will give you more guitar as compared to the background noise and room sound.