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Old 08-12-2020, 07:59 AM
Kenny B Kenny B is offline
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Default Somogyi Scale lengths

Something that has bothered me for a long time... the scale length of the OMs or OO guitars by Somogyi and apprentices seem to default at 25" and the bigger body Mod Ds are 25.25". I was wondering who decided this? I love a short scale guitar but usually the bigger body guitars I like to tune down and the 25.5" seems to work well for the lower tunings. Also gives one more room in the upper frets which I really need.

So my question to anyone so inclined... do you think this is a good idea? Would you rather have the longer scale lengths to be the norm. Granted one can custom order any scale length, even a fan fret, but I just have to wonder how and why this was decided.
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Old 08-12-2020, 08:49 AM
ericcsong ericcsong is offline
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I do know that Kostal's 00 model has a 24.75 scale. I believe that many builders would do a custom scale if requested. This just makes it hard to a short scale Somogyi/apprentice guitar used!

I don't have a problem tuning my Mod D down at all.

I'm guessing the Somogyi norm for 25 and 25.25 is because Ervin said so
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Old 08-12-2020, 09:26 AM
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Cocobolo Kid Cocobolo Kid is offline
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Ray Kraut's default scale lengths follow suit at 24.75" for his 00, 25" for his 0M and 25.25" for the Mod D. I don't know about the other Somogyi apprentices, but Ray uses medium gauge strings as standard. This gives the tension for down tuning but also a shorter scale for playability. Ray has also told me that he likes the fuller trebles on his guitars with medium gauge strings.

Ray has put a lot of thought and years of experience into the design of his guitars. Ray learned a lot from Ervin, but Ervin always encouraged him to experiment and question, and not just blindly follow. Since leaving Ervin's apprenticeship, Ray has changed some important facets of his guitar design, such as the neck block/joint of the guitar.

IMO, Ray builds one of the most responsive and balanced guitars, so whatever Ervin is teaching, it seems to work.

I do see your point though. I usually prefer a 25.6" scale with light gauge strings. Ray is finishing up on a 00 I ordered from him, and he is doing a 25" scale for me with medium gauge strings (up from his 24.75" standard).
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Old 08-12-2020, 10:50 AM
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I haven’t found that Somogyi-based guitars have any problem with lowered tunings even with the shorter scale length. As for who decided on that standard, my guess is Ervin. But I’m pretty sure they’ll go longer if you want.
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Old 08-31-2020, 08:24 AM
Michael Watts Michael Watts is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justonwo View Post
I haven’t found that Somogyi-based guitars have any problem with lowered tunings even with the shorter scale length. As for who decided on that standard, my guess is Ervin. But I’m pretty sure they’ll go longer if you want.
Yeah, this! I'm on 25" on the MDW. Works for me!
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Old 08-31-2020, 01:57 PM
lfarhadi lfarhadi is offline
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The Michael Greenfield interview in the current Luthier on Luthier podcast is a wealth of insights for those of you interested in the interplay of scale length, string gauge, and specific drop tunings...
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Old 09-24-2020, 12:20 PM
ChuckEzell ChuckEzell is offline
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I have a related question and it might be a dumb one but I'm going to ask it.

With a 25" scale length does the fret scale change as well? Seems like the fret scale is the same between a typical 12 fret vs 14 fret? 24.9" to 25" to 25.5"?

I know many times it relates to a difference in bridge position and therefore I'm expecting also the fret scale (i.e. fret positions) essentially move as well?
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Old 09-24-2020, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by ChuckEzell View Post
I have a related question and it might be a dumb one but I'm going to ask it.

With a 25" scale length does the fret scale change as well? Seems like the fret scale is the same between a typical 12 fret vs 14 fret? 24.9" to 25" to 25.5"?

I know many times it relates to a difference in bridge position and therefore I'm expecting also the fret scale (i.e. fret positions) essentially move as well?
I'm not really sure what you're asking, exactly, but I'll try to answer what I think you may be asking. The overall distance between the frets shrinks when you go from a longer scale length to a shorter one. In the extreme, think of going from a guitar to a mandolin. In order to get the conventional note spacing, the frets are much closer to each other on a mandolin compared to a guitar.

Once you choose a scale length, your fret spacing is fixed and predetermined. The builder can still choose where the neck meets the body and, as a result, the location of the bridge on the body. The decision of the frets to the body has an effect on bridge position, as well as the length of the guitar, upper bout, etc.
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Old 09-24-2020, 03:49 PM
ChuckEzell ChuckEzell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justonwo View Post
I'm not really sure what you're asking, exactly, but I'll try to answer what I think you may be asking. The overall distance between the frets shrinks when you go from a longer scale length to a shorter one. In the extreme, think of going from a guitar to a mandolin. In order to get the conventional note spacing, the frets are much closer to each other on a mandolin compared to a guitar.

Once you choose a scale length, your fret spacing is fixed and predetermined. The builder can still choose where the neck meets the body and, as a result, the location of the bridge on the body. The decision of the frets to the body has an effect on bridge position, as well as the length of the guitar, upper bout, etc.
Got it! You answered my question and at the same time expanded some horizons for me. That opens up all kinds of other creative questions in my mind.

I think about the Signature Norman Blake 000 that is a 14 fret scale joined at the 12th (I believe that's right)? I think that bridge is in a different position and maybe that's just a Frankenstein of a guitar.
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Old 09-24-2020, 04:01 PM
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Well, sort of. The scale length and the fret where the neck hits the body are really independent variables. You can have a 12 fret or 14 fret long scale or short scale.

That Norman Blake guitar you're talking about looks like a short scale OM (called a 000 in Modern Martin parlance). The neck joins the body at the 14th fret, but the scale is 24.75". That's not really a Frankenstein configuration. It's just one of Martin's historical iterations.

Before the OM existed, you had the long scale 000 12 fret. By shortening the upper bout of the 000-12 and moving the bridge closer to the neck, Martin came up with the OM. Still a long scale guitar, but now 14 fret. I'm no Martin historian, but at some point, those long scale OMs were replaced by shorter scale guitars that went back to the "000" designation. They had the same body shape as the OM but with a shorter scale (24.9, I believe). So "000" went from referring to a long scale, 12 fret guitar, to a short scale 14 fret guitar.

So you have to be careful with Martin designations. 000 can mean a long scale 12 fret or short scale OM.

But that's just Martin's naming conventions. In reality, you can have long or short scale in either configuration. But once you pick a scale length, the location of the frets and spacing is not adjustable.
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Old 09-24-2020, 04:11 PM
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Wait, I read that Norman Blake description too quickly. That is a Frankenstein guitar in the sense that there isn't really a "classic" Martin with that configuration. It has an OM body shape, short scale, and joins at the 12th fret, with the bridge much further away from the sound hole.
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Old 09-24-2020, 09:49 PM
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SprintBob SprintBob is offline
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Originally Posted by lfarhadi View Post
The Michael Greenfield interview in the current Luthier on Luthier podcast is a wealth of insights for those of you interested in the interplay of scale length, string gauge, and specific drop tunings...
That’s a great interview and what I seem to understand is that Mr. Greenfield believes a longer scale length is key to getting better tone. If you look at his website, his OM, GA, and Jumbo size guitars have scale lengths of 25.4, 25.78, and 26 inches respectively. Looks like he is approaching it differently than the Somogyi/Kraut/Kostal scale length philosophies.
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Old 09-25-2020, 10:23 AM
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I've always wondered how a long scale Somogyi or Somogyi-style (Kraut, Gaffney, etc) would sound. Somogyi OMs can have a generous bit of compression on the attack. You can dial some of that back depending on the woods you choose, but a little more of the "snap" and immediacy of a longer scale would be really interesting in that context.
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Old 09-25-2020, 12:44 PM
lfarhadi lfarhadi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SprintBob View Post
That’s a great interview and what I seem to understand is that Mr. Greenfield believes a longer scale length is key to getting better tone. If you look at his website, his OM, GA, and Jumbo size guitars have scale lengths of 25.4, 25.78, and 26 inches respectively. Looks like he is approaching it differently than the Somogyi/Kraut/Kostal scale length philosophies.
Yes but keep in mind his specialty is producing custom scale lengths for drop tunings (less tension) and also his guitars are generally tuned for medium strings (higher tension) so it's hard to make apples-to-apples comparisons about tonal targets vs a Somogyi OM
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Old 10-12-2020, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by usb_chord View Post
I've always wondered how a long scale Somogyi or Somogyi-style (Kraut, Gaffney, etc) would sound. Somogyi OMs can have a generous bit of compression on the attack. You can dial some of that back depending on the woods you choose, but a little more of the "snap" and immediacy of a longer scale would be really interesting in that context.
I have a long scale Tom Sands Mod-D (27-28.25"), so made by a Somogyi apprentice. As far as I know, it the only Somogyi school baritone or long scale guitar (link to the build thread in the signature). The intention was that it works as a full fat baritone (with 16-70 strings on) and as a D guitar (tuning D-D standard) with mediums on. Capo'd at the second fret in the latter mode gives you a 12 fret, standard tuned guitars.

It's a really lovely beast! I'm working on some recordings, so will share those in due course. There's snippet here too of the guitar in baritone mode (at about 2:21 and more at the end) in this video, where Tom introduces the guitar:

I played a Schwartz which was something like 26-26.75" fan, which I also adored. The both share that deeper, more cello like voicing that comes with a long scale. I also use a lot of alternative tunings, often down to C or B in the bass, so a longer scale works well. I find my Kostals (OM 25" and MD 25.25") are fine down to a C, but it all starts to collapse for B tunings like BF#DF#AD, BEDGAD, etc (which is fair enough, really!).

So my general conclusion is that I love the effect longer scale lengths have on the presentation of notes (so much so that my next Sands will probably be 25.4-26.55, or along those lines).
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