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Old 11-16-2020, 08:53 AM
Cool555 Cool555 is offline
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Default Action at 12th fret? 2.75mm is good?

I do not have digital measuring clippers to measure my action for my 00-15m. As shown in the picture at the 12th fret, the reading is 2.75mm as measured from the bottom of the string.



1. Is this the correct way of measuring (from the bottom) of the string.



2. Is the action of 2.75mm (at 12th fret) considered low, medium or high?



Thanks in advance for your help and advice!

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Old 11-16-2020, 08:56 AM
Talldad Talldad is offline
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High ish

Bottom E needs to be around 2.5mm or 100 thou measured using feeler gauges

Top E get closer to around 75 thousandths of an inch.
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Old 11-16-2020, 09:01 AM
Cool555 Cool555 is offline
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Originally Posted by Talldad View Post
High ish

Bottom E needs to be around 2.5mm or 100 thou measured using feeler gauges

Top E get closer to around 75 thousandths of an inch.
So the top E needs to be 2.5mm, as measured from the bottom of the string, to be considered average action height?
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Old 11-16-2020, 09:10 AM
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IndianHillMike IndianHillMike is offline
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That's a somewhat high action. I aim for 2.2-2.3 mm for the low E (bass) and 1.6-1.7 mm for the high E (treble).
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Old 11-16-2020, 09:14 AM
Cool555 Cool555 is offline
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Originally Posted by IndianHillMike View Post
That's a somewhat high action. I aim for 2.2-2.3 mm for the low E (bass) and 1.6-1.7 mm for the high E (treble).
Do you use digital clippers to measure or that metal measuring gauge that I’m using? Thanks.
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Old 11-16-2020, 09:33 AM
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IndianHillMike IndianHillMike is offline
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Originally Posted by Cool555 View Post
Do you use digital clippers to measure or that metal measuring gauge that I’m using? Thanks.
For a quick check I'll just use my regular 6" ruler -- I've used it enough times over the years that I can get a pretty accurate read with just that. When I'm doing a final setup I'll use my regular calipers (I don't actually have digital calipers!). Using the depth gauge I'll measure from the top of the string to the top of the fret and then subtract the thickness of the string. It takes a little bit of a delicate touch to measure without pressing down on the string. Recently I got the nut depth gauge from StewMac and that also can work quite well for checking action. The gauge does press slightly on the string but the effect seems pretty minimal and can be taken into account in the final measurement. Hope that helps!
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Old 11-16-2020, 09:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndianHillMike View Post
For a quick check I'll just use my regular 6" ruler -- I've used it enough times over the years that I can get a pretty accurate read with just that. When I'm doing a final setup I'll use my regular calipers (I don't actually have digital calipers!). Using the depth gauge I'll measure from the top of the string to the top of the fret and then subtract the thickness of the string. It takes a little bit of a delicate touch to measure without pressing down on the string. Recently I got the nut depth gauge from StewMac and that also can work quite well for checking action. The gauge does press slightly on the string but the effect seems pretty minimal and can be taken into account in the final measurement. Hope that helps!
Thanks for describing how you measure the action. It was helpful.
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Old 11-16-2020, 09:44 AM
Robin, Wales Robin, Wales is offline
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Originally Posted by Cool555 View Post
Do you use digital clippers to measure or that metal measuring gauge that I’m using? Thanks.
I have one of those gauges, and also the StuMac version, and a number of engineering steel rules. The gauge you have tends to read just a fraction lower than the actual reading should be, but it is good enough.

You should be measuring the gap between the top of the 12th fret to the underside of the string. A gap of 2.5mm for the bass (6th) string is fairly standard on an acoustic guitar.

BUT you need to have set the relief correctly first and then set the height of the nut slots correctly before measuring the height of the action at the 12th fret - or the measurement is somewhat meaningless.

Your slightly high action may be because your nut is too high or you have too much relief in the neck - or it could be that your saddle is too high. Sanding a little off the saddle to drop the action would be the wrong solution if you have not checked the nut and the relief first.

The relief is easy to set because the truss rod does that job. But the nut slots are more complicated as you need specialist nut files (and they are generally more expensive to buy than taking your guitar to a guitar tech for a basic set-up).

Given that you have a quality guitar it would certainly be worth getting it set-up as playing it will become far more pleasurable.
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Old 11-16-2020, 06:34 PM
RonMay RonMay is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool555 View Post
I do not have digital measuring clippers to measure my action for my 00-15m. As shown in the picture at the 12th fret, the reading is 2.75mm as measured from the bottom of the string.



1. Is this the correct way of measuring (from the bottom) of the string.



2. Is the action of 2.75mm (at 12th fret) considered low, medium or high?



Thanks in advance for your help and advice!

It also depends on playing style and personal preference. .100" is way to high for my preference. I set mine at .075 to .080" for the 6th and about .070" for the 1st string.

It helps me not have to put a lot of pressure on my fingers to get a note.

Remember for example, if the action is .010" higher than you want, you'll have to take off twice that or .020" off the bottom of the saddle. So, check your saddle to see if you can actually take off that much with out making the break angle to the bridge pins too shallow.

If you have never done this before I also suggest besides taking it to a pro to get set up, watch a ton of "adjusting string action" videos on Ytube to get a good idea of what you will actually need to do and everything involved in doing it.
Ron
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Old 11-16-2020, 08:56 PM
Brucebubs Brucebubs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndianHillMike View Post
That's a somewhat high action. I aim for 2.2-2.3 mm for the low E (bass) and 1.6-1.7 mm for the high E (treble).
Same here - 2.25mm works for me.



p.s. Does the Martin 00-15M only have a single dot side marker at the 12th fret? All my guitars have double dots.
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Last edited by Brucebubs; 11-16-2020 at 09:04 PM.
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Old 11-16-2020, 11:39 PM
Cool555 Cool555 is offline
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Default Action at 12th fret? 2.75mm is good?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin, Wales View Post
I have one of those gauges, and also the StuMac version, and a number of engineering steel rules. The gauge you have tends to read just a fraction lower than the actual reading should be, but it is good enough.

You should be measuring the gap between the top of the 12th fret to the underside of the string. A gap of 2.5mm for the bass (6th) string is fairly standard on an acoustic guitar.

BUT you need to have set the relief correctly first and then set the height of the nut slots correctly before measuring the height of the action at the 12th fret - or the measurement is somewhat meaningless.

Your slightly high action may be because your nut is too high or you have too much relief in the neck - or it could be that your saddle is too high. Sanding a little off the saddle to drop the action would be the wrong solution if you have not checked the nut and the relief first.

The relief is easy to set because the truss rod does that job. But the nut slots are more complicated as you need specialist nut files (and they are generally more expensive to buy than taking your guitar to a guitar tech for a basic set-up).

Given that you have a quality guitar it would certainly be worth getting it set-up as playing it will become far more pleasurable.

Thanks Robin for the very detailed explanation! I appreciate it!

I’m learning to do my own setup if it’s not too difficult. I ordered StewMac’s nut files (a year ago) and have worked on 4 guitar’s nut slot depth. 3 success and 1 failure. I’m quite familiar with adjusting the truss rod. But I have not tried filling the saddle yet as I don’t have a clamp to hold the saddle.

Btw, this 00-15m (bought new 11 months ago) came with very low nut slot depth, which is to my liking. Maybe the saddle needs to be lowered. It measures about 3.5mm on the base side (the part of the saddle that can be seen sticking out from the bridge).
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Last edited by Cool555; 11-17-2020 at 05:25 AM.
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Old 11-16-2020, 11:44 PM
Cool555 Cool555 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brucebubs View Post
Same here - 2.25mm works for me.



p.s. Does the Martin 00-15M only have a single dot side marker at the 12th fret? All my guitars have double dots.
Thanks Bruce! Your picture is so clear!

Yes, the 00-15m has only 1 dot at the 12th fret. Strange.
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Old 11-16-2020, 11:50 PM
Cool555 Cool555 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RonMay View Post
It also depends on playing style and personal preference. .100" is way to high for my preference. I set mine at .075 to .080" for the 6th and about .070" for the 1st string.

It helps me not have to put a lot of pressure on my fingers to get a note.

Remember for example, if the action is .010" higher than you want, you'll have to take off twice that or .020" off the bottom of the saddle. So, check your saddle to see if you can actually take off that much with out making the break angle to the bridge pins too shallow.

If you have never done this before I also suggest besides taking it to a pro to get set up, watch a ton of "adjusting string action" videos on Ytube to get a good idea of what you will actually need to do and everything involved in doing it.
Ron
Thanks Ron for that helpful explanation!
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  #14  
Old 11-17-2020, 05:29 AM
Robin, Wales Robin, Wales is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cool555 View Post
Thanks Robin for the very detailed explanation! I appreciate it!

I’m learning to do my own setup if it’s not too difficult. I ordered StewMac’s nut files (a year ago) and have worked on 4 guitar’s nut slot depth. 3 success and 1 failure. I’m quite familiar with adjusting the truss rod. But I have not tried filling the saddle yet as I don’t have a clamp to hold the saddle.

Btw, this 00-15m (bought new 11 months ago) came with very low nut slot depth, which is to my liking. Maybe the saddle needs to be lowered. It measures about 3.5mm on the base side (the part of the saddle that can be seen sticking out from the bridge).
That’s great that you have your nut slots sorted and your relief set too.

You certainly can sand a little off the underside of the saddle by hand to lower it - you don't need a clamp. BTW – it is the underside that is nearly always sanded to lower a saddle, not the top. Many saddles have complex radius and string intonation off-sets along their tops that are best left alone. Find some emery paper of grits 80 to 120 depending on how much needs to come off and place them on a flat surface. Mark a pencil line on the saddle to guide how much you need to sand off. Usually this is twice as much as the action needs to be lowered at the 12th fret. Take your time when sanding; it is all too easy to drift from vertical when holding the saddle between your fingers. So keep checking down the length of the underside to make sure you are sanding squarely.

I usually buy a spare saddle when doing this job and work on the new saddle leaving the original as it is. That way I can keep comparing the two against each other on a flat surface to make sure all is going OK. And if lowering the saddle causes other issues, then I can always drop the original saddle back in.

The only thing to watch out for is not going too low and then losing the string break angle behind the saddle – on the 1st string particularly. You need more than 10 deg. On some bridges the pin holes are slotted to help increase the break angle with a low saddle. You’ll know if you have gone too low on the break angle because your lovely guitar will start to sound like a banjo!!!!!!

On a good guitar brand like your Martin you should be able to get an action of 2.5mm bass and 2mm treble at the 12th fret with no issues at all.
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I'm learning to flatpick and fingerpick guitar to accompany songs.

I've played and studied traditional noter/drone mountain dulcimer for many years. And I used to play dobro in a bluegrass band.



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  #15  
Old 11-17-2020, 08:24 AM
Cool555 Cool555 is offline
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Smile Thank you Robin!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robin, Wales View Post
That’s great that you have your nut slots sorted and your relief set too.

You certainly can sand a little off the underside of the saddle by hand to lower it - you don't need a clamp. BTW – it is the underside that is nearly always sanded to lower a saddle, not the top. Many saddles have complex radius and string intonation off-sets along their tops that are best left alone. Find some emery paper of grits 80 to 120 depending on how much needs to come off and place them on a flat surface. Mark a pencil line on the saddle to guide how much you need to sand off. Usually this is twice as much as the action needs to be lowered at the 12th fret. Take your time when sanding; it is all too easy to drift from vertical when holding the saddle between your fingers. So keep checking down the length of the underside to make sure you are sanding squarely.

I usually buy a spare saddle when doing this job and work on the new saddle leaving the original as it is. That way I can keep comparing the two against each other on a flat surface to make sure all is going OK. And if lowering the saddle causes other issues, then I can always drop the original saddle back in.

The only thing to watch out for is not going too low and then losing the string break angle behind the saddle – on the 1st string particularly. You need more than 10 deg. On some bridges the pin holes are slotted to help increase the break angle with a low saddle. You’ll know if you have gone too low on the break angle because your lovely guitar will start to sound like a banjo!!!!!!

On a good guitar brand like your Martin you should be able to get an action of 2.5mm bass and 2mm treble at the 12th fret with no issues at all.
Thanks again Robin for your clear instructions! I’ll take a couple days to decide if I want to lower the saddle. Earlier I straightened the neck some more and it now measures 2.6mm bass at the 12th fret. My Yamaha FS5, set up by a guitar technician measures 2.25mm bass at 12th fret.

I just checked my guitar gearbox and I have 2 spare saddles, meant for Martin guitars. One made of bone and the other I cannot remember as it was close to 2 years ago. I bought them when I had my Martin Dread Junior 2.
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Last edited by Cool555; 11-17-2020 at 10:15 AM.
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