Boutique vs Martin for dreads

[lhnewman]

Originally Posted by FPicker

About 20 years ago I took my precious Collings D2H to jam with a guy who had a Martin HD-28. I smugly supposed that mine would be the better guitar.

I was completely wrong. The HD-28 sounded better.

Assuming the feel is equal, above a certain price point I think it comes down to particular guitars.
You can make the same style instrument to the same specs with the same the woods, and when they come out they can wind up sounding a lot different. A mandolin manufacturer told me that.

I was in a shop once that had two identical Taylor guitars, same model, one next to the other. They sounded different.

The mass production guitars are made to a "formula", but it is one that often produces good sounding guitars. Even in eras where they had it "wrong", there are good sounding guitars. My sister's mid-70s Martin 000 sounds great.

But you do have to play them first. All of them, IMO.

completely agree...was ready to buy a 1970 J-50 Gibson the other day...I played it and it sounded too bright...not rich at all....it was in great condition, and the finish on the soundboard shiny...problem I think was the guitar had rarely been played....had no soul....playing time matters, IMHO

[Tnfiddler]

Originally Posted by MoonSpruce

Are Eastman not in China? Just because you call it a “collaborative effort” doesn’t mean it isn’t just a fancy word for outsourcing. What else do you call having a Chinese company manufacture the body, neck, etc. just not the voicing of the top?

The Lewiston, Maine guitars will still be 100% made in Lewiston, Maine. These new models that are a collaboration are the ones that will be worked on in China.

[MoonSpruce]

Originally Posted by Tnfiddler

The Lewiston, Maine guitars will still be 100% made in Lewiston, Maine. These new models that are a collaboration are the ones that will be worked on in China.

Same with Breedlove. Their MasterClass custom shop models are still made in the USA. Doesn’t change the fact their branded guitars are made in China.

[hifivic]

Originally Posted by MoonSpruce

Are Eastman not in China? Just because you call it a “collaborative effort” doesn’t mean it isn’t just a fancy word for outsourcing. What else do you call having a Chinese company manufacture the body, neck, etc. just not the voicing of the top?

You have now had 4 different members try to educate you in one single post. It would be a prudent idea to calm down especially considering a 2 month old membership! Just because one of the worlds most respected luthiers is trying to offer a lower priced guitar via a partnership does not mean the guitars built in the U.S. will be affected nor use Chinese parts. Many other guitar companies have done the same.

[Tnfiddler]

Originally Posted by MoonSpruce

Same with Breedlove. Their MasterClass custom shop models are still made in the USA. Doesn’t change the fact their branded guitars are made in China.

What’s the point of your argument?? Who are you trying to convince that Bourgeois guitars are cheap or no good because he’s entered into a partnership to offer his guitars to a wider range of people? Not everyone can afford a $4k plus guitar and if you read my posts from a different thread, the E6d and E10d Eastman’s I played at a shop were just as good as every Martin I played in the shop that day.

[Br1ck]

There was a highly regarded brand in a local store that just did not sell well. There were four or five other boutique brands, and two major players carried in the store. I could not tell you why, because the few I played were always fine guitars. Hundreds of the brand's owners would tear their hair out. A friend owns one and is thrilled. It is so subjective at this price point.

I never pass on trying any guitar in the used inventory, and have played many boutique brands. One particular highly touted brand has never done anything for me, and most of the lot have not so far had me reaching for my wallet.

The wanting to own something is fraught with subliminal and surface motives. If any brand gives you satisfaction for any reason, feel free to buy it. Could be your favorite player plays one, could fit your style perfectly, could produce envy among your peers, or just look better to you. All brands are trying to tick all your boxes.

Going shopping knowing all your motives will help arrive at a good choice. I hate certain logos. I'm drawn to old quality beat up guitars. The heroes of my youth played certain brands. Dreads have ruled my world. You need to recognize your own biases and how they guide your perception. Not that it would change much, but I find self awareness is usually a good thing. A little self deception is ok, as long as you end up happy.

[Glennwillow]

I have some boutique guitars -- an Olson SJ, a Gerald Sheppard GA, a Collings OM1A, a Santa Cruz FS and SCGC OM/PW. These are all terrific guitars. But in dreadnoughts I find I prefer Martin. I have a 1967 D-35 and a 2018 D-45. These are both, in my opinion, stellar instruments.

I have played some boutique dreadnoughts, but the only one I liked was a Adi/BRW Collings D3 that was incredible, probably the best dread I have ever played, but not for sale. I have played a couple Santa Cruz 1938D models and they were too stiff for me. Same for a beautiful Adi/BRW Bourgeois. Beautiful guitar, but just way too stiff for me. Not responsive enough. They were clearly made for heavy flat pickers, not for me, a finger picker.

Of course, I don't think every Martin dreadnought sounds great. But the ones I have definitely meet my desires for the kind of dread I want.

- Glenn

[MoonSpruce]

Originally Posted by Tnfiddler

What’s the point of your argument?? Who are you trying to convince that Bourgeois guitars are cheap or no good because he’s entered into a partnership to offer his guitars to a wider range of people? Not everyone can afford a $4k plus guitar and if you read my posts from a different thread, the E6d and E10d Eastman’s I played at a shop were just as good as every Martin I played in the shop that day.

I suggest you refer to my original post in this thread. Someone mentioned that Bourgeois are worth more because of the care and attention to detail put into the instrument by a small shop (thus implying superiority to Martins, which are largely factory built). I simply pointed out that Bourgeois outsources to China due to cheaper labor, and you even admit it’s to provide cheaper models for the consumer. So saying Bourgeois puts more effort into a guitar is not a valid argument, because a) Martin also has a custom shop which puts attention to detail to their higher end models and b) Bourgeois also has factory built models in China.

[Matts67]

Originally Posted by MoonSpruce

I suggest you refer to my original post in this thread. Someone mentioned that Bourgeois are worth more because of the care and attention to detail put into the instrument by a small shop (thus implying superiority to Martins, which are largely factory built). I simply pointed out that Bourgeois outsources to China due to cheaper labor, and you even admit it’s to provide cheaper models for the consumer. So saying Bourgeois puts more effort into a guitar is not a valid argument, because a) Martin also has a custom shop which puts attention to detail to their higher end models and b) Bourgeois also has factory built models in China.

I think if you're comparing apples to apples, it's safe to say that the USA made Martins, custom shop or not, do not receive the same level of attention to detail that USA made Bourgeois guitars do. Not saying one is better than the other, but I feel comfortable making that statement.

There are currently no Bourgeois guitars on the market with labor outsourced to China. When those do reach the market, those models being constructed by outsourced labor will have no bearing on the USA made models, so it really has nothing to do with any of this. So once again, we have no idea what point you're trying to make.

[BrunoBlack]

People like what they like and I really hope everyone finds what they are looking for, no matter who builds it. However, for accuracy — Bourgeois does not outsource. They might at some point, but they have not and do not outsource production of their instruments.

[Tnfiddler]

Originally Posted by MoonSpruce

I suggest you refer to my original post in this thread. Someone mentioned that Bourgeois are worth more because of the care and attention to detail put into the instrument by a small shop (thus implying superiority to Martins, which are largely factory built). I simply pointed out that Bourgeois outsources to China due to cheaper labor, and you even admit it’s to provide cheaper models for the consumer. So saying Bourgeois puts more effort into a guitar is not a valid argument, because a) Martin also has a custom shop which puts attention to detail to their higher end models and b) Bourgeois also has factory built models in China.

If you look at my signature, you'll see that I have a high-end Martin and a Bourgeois. I'll ask you straight up, do you have either a Bourgeois or a Custom-shop Martin? If not, then your argument isn't valid either, because you're merely going off your opinion versus first-hand knowledge. Just so you'll know, WHEN(they're not available now) the joint American/Chinese Bourgeois models come out, I'll have one of those too! But back to your original argument, a shop that puts out 400 guitars a year DOES put a lot more attention into their guitars than a company that puts out 50k-100k guitars a year. Dana, personally, shaves the top bracing of every guitar that comes out of their shop(I've talked to them and know this to be a fact and not an opinion) and if that doesn't show the amount of attention they get, nothing will. Your turn!LOL

[captain_jack]

Originally Posted by MoonSpruce

I suggest you refer to my original post in this thread. Someone mentioned that Bourgeois are worth more because of the care and attention to detail put into the instrument by a small shop (thus implying superiority to Martins, which are largely factory built). I simply pointed out that Bourgeois outsources to China due to cheaper labor, and you even admit it’s to provide cheaper models for the consumer. So saying Bourgeois puts more effort into a guitar is not a valid argument, because a) Martin also has a custom shop which puts attention to detail to their higher end models and b) Bourgeois also has factory built models in China.

Do you have a source you can point to that confirms this? My understanding is that Bourgeois are 100% made in the USA, as of today.

[Rev Roy]

Dana’s latest statement about the Eastman collaboration. He addresses a number of the misconceptions that have leaked into this thread…
https://bourgeoisguitars.com/bourgeo...ration-update/

[Tnfiddler]

Originally Posted by Rev Roy

Dana’s latest statement about the Eastman collaboration. He addresses a number of the misconceptions that have leaked into this thread…
https://bourgeoisguitars.com/bourgeo...ration-update/

Thank you for posting this! I hadn't read that update, but I'm glad I did and I'm actually REALLY looking forward to picking up one of their collaboration guitars in an OM body style!

[asilker]

Hi everyone, stuffed shirt here.

In the last year I sold a J45, D28, HD28, and 000-18 and I'm now playing two boutique dreads (one is a Bourgeois).

That being said I think Martin makes wonderful, excellent sounding instruments. As well as Gibson. Also I think there's really something special about straight bracing and guitars that are not "pre-war". Although my Bourgeois feels like a pre war dread.

If I pony up to make a big purchase again it will be a 40's / 50's QUIET J45 or J50.

It's all good.

I have a laminate Eastman that sounds wonderful too.