Relative Minor vs non-relative (?) minor

[1neeto]

Just when I thought that modes came out of major key.

[Ten]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

I know what the Mixolydian mode is, and that's still cryptic. Trey could explain it to me, but somebody forgot to tell him about it.

Haha! It’s a Phish thing, I assumed we were all as familiar with Trey Anastasio as we were with Gregorian chants.

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by Ten

Haha! It’s a Phish thing, I assumed we were all as familiar with Trey Anastasio as we were with Gregorian chants.

Heck yes. My jogging playlist is half and half.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by 1neeto

Just when I thought that modes came out of major key.

Yes, that's like saying a parent comes out of its child.
The "major scale" is just one kind of mode, and a fairly young one in historical terms.

Still, you can - obviously - derive modes from the major scale. Western music has been based on the major scale for a few centuries now, so we may as well treat it as the foundation of everything.
The trick is to take the modes out of the major scale: emancipate them, free them from their major scale chains!
D dorian (and the others) are not "in the major key" - they are outside, free to be their own thing!

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Ten

I assumed we were all as familiar with Trey Anastasio as we were with Gregorian chants.

Well, I am. I know almost nothing about either!

[Erithon]

Originally Posted by JonPR

It fell out of favour - along with dorian, phrygian and lydian - in the middle ages/early renaissance - and only in the Christian church, because that's the only music from then that we know about, because it was written down. That was because someone realised how cool the new modes of ionian and aeolian were, to make major and minor KEYS. Amazing new invention in music! (Aeolian had to be messed around a little with harmonic and melodic alterations, to make the "minor key".)

Fun fact: Dorian actually did not fall out of favor until much later. It, and not Aeolian, was the basis for "minor" music for most of post-classical Western history. Only more recently did Aeolian begin to eclipse Dorian as the go-to "minor."

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by 1neeto

Yep. Circle of fifths.

I that that was frat party back in the old days

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Erithon

Fun fact: Dorian actually did not fall out of favor until much later. It, and not Aeolian, was the basis for "minor" music for most of post-classical Western history. Only more recently did Aeolian begin to eclipse Dorian as the go-to "minor."

Interesting, thanks. Do you have a good link for that?

[Erithon]

Originally Posted by JonPR

Interesting, thanks. Do you have a good link for that?

It's something I remember from theory class in college. But a (real quick) Google search turned up this so at least we know I'm not just imagining it haha

[Kerbie]

Fascinating discussion... thanks, guys. I love Dorian. It's my favorite mode to noodle in.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Erithon

It's something I remember from theory class in college. But a (real quick) Google search turned up this so at least we know I'm not just imagining it haha

Thanks. It's only a single post, but he seems to know what he's talking about, and wasn't contradicted. I know that site well, and its FAQ has a lengthy explanation of the various uses of modes (and the various meanings of the term) but no clear explanation of the evolutionary process between modes and keys in terms of how long specific modes survived.

Obviously it's way too easy to say that first there was dorian, phrygian, lydian and mixolydian, and then (officially from 1547) ionian and aeolian arrived and eventually took over and became "keys". Naturally it was a whole lot messier, with a whole lot more overlap.

[Erithon]

Re-reading my post I realize I should clarify that by "post-classical" I am referring to the ancient Mediterranean world and not the "classical" era in Western music. Aeolian certainly was the minor generally employed by Haydn and Mozart!

[1neeto]

Originally Posted by KevWind

I that that was frat party back in the old days

Is this here where I’m supposed to plead the fifth? (Pun definitely intended) [emoji23]

[hatamoto]

Originally Posted by pf400

Quick theory question...Am is the relative minor of the C scale and chord. Looking at the major scale, we see that the 2nd, 3rd and 6th degrees of a major scale are minors. The 6th degree is always the relative minor, but what do we call those other minors?

I always referred to them as E Phrygian, D Dorian and A Aeolian

[hatamoto]

Originally Posted by 1neeto

Just when I thought that modes came out of major key.

nah. I always think of modes as "flavours" or "moods"

Ionian- Majestic, Superhero-like or just plain happy
Dorian-sexy sad
Phrygian- Exotic, dark
Lydian- spaced out, cosmic, kind of creepy at times
Mixolydian-Funky happy (like ghostbusters)
Aeolian-Sad tragic
Locrian- tension

For every key theres a mode and they always go in this order Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian, Locrian

Phyrigian, Dorian and Aeloian are minor. The rest are major. Locrian is diminished