How to fit into a jam made for fiddle players

[Ralph124C41]

Yes, you read it write ... it's a jam intended for fiddle players and fiddle tunes but guitarists are welcome as well as some other acoustic players.

I would like to play at the jams because I do like playing bluegrass fiddle tunes ... but this group plays a lot of Celtic/Irish or other fiddle tunes, many of which I've never heard about. The players, however, seem to know the songs and blaze through them one after the other, just calling out the name of the song and usually the key.

I went to two jams last year and left each time after an hour because I didn't know the songs and there were no songbooks or even list of songs. So all I could do was try to "copy" the chords used by any other guitarist there but that didn't work when I couldn't see the chord and couldn't follow rapid chord changes. I thought my out-of-time playing would be counterproductive to the group.

When I got my tune to play I did try to do a bluegrass fiddle tune on the guitar but a few members told me "That's not how we do it" or "we do that in a different key."

One reason I'd like to join the group is that the acoustic jam I've been going to for the past 12 years looks like it will be ending as the leader says he can no longer capable of doing it and nobody in our group, including me, has the time or desire to be the leader.

Any suggestions ... or should I just give up on this group? I really don't have any other options in my area. We have plenty of open mics, but I've found that I'm not an "open mic" type of player as I'm not a strong singer or instrumentalist.

[Silly Moustache]

Hi, I sympathise and have been there.

In fiddle tune, and "old time" guitarists are universally regarded as unimportant sidemen.
I was once told "It's a zen thing" as they all play the same stuff in the same keys and there is no room for innovation.

Bluegrass jams can be similar, but less formalised.

I also agree that "open-mics" are often soul destroying as it actually means - everyone plugs in to whatever (usually too large p.a. systems, and the "audience" regard you as background noise.

So sad that the folk club scene has died ...... unless ..... you create one!

I did but I called it an "Acoustic Music club, (i.e. not limiting it by genre) and giving all comers a 10 - 15 minute "spot".

Maybe you could consider this?

[Ralph124C41]

Originally Posted by Silly Moustache

Hi, I sympathise and have been there.

In fiddle tune, and "old time" guitarists are universally regarded as unimportant sidemen.
I was once told "It's a zen thing" as they all play the same stuff in the same keys and there is no room for innovation.

Bluegrass jams can be similar, but less formalised.

I also agree that "open-mics" are often soul destroying as it actually means - everyone plugs in to whatever (usually too large p.a. systems, and the "audience" regard you as background noise.

So sad that the folk club scene has died ...... unless ..... you create one!

I did but I called it an "Acoustic Music club, (i.e. not limiting it by genre) and giving all comers a 10 - 15 minute "spot".

Maybe you could consider this?

I am not a starter of any group (just not an "alpha male" guitarist). At bluegrass jams it is easier because many of the songs are simple three-four-five chord versions. But I agree ... we guitarists are mainly there because they more or less tolerate us.

This doesn't sound too encouraging does it? There is a similar group about an hour's drive away and they HAVE a songbook plus stuff online. But this group has none of that and no plans to have anything like that.

[Bob from Brooklyn]

Personally, I’d take a pass with this group.

[Robin, Wales]

Ralph, are you the only guitar player at this Celtic/Irish tune session? If so, then you could have a great role to play (if it is something you want to do?). Personally, I would tune to DADGAD and drive the session along. Playing in DADGAD (particularly with a capo at hand) really isn't rocket science. There are loads of two fingered chords you can get away with, and pick out bits of tune to boot. If they are calling the key then that's all you need to know.

I wouldn't call myself a DADGAD player, but it took no time at all to work out a few chords by ear to produce the guitar backing to Elzic's Farewell in my signature below. So, if you want to stay with that session, and play along to everything, then perhaps DADGAD rhythm guitar is the way to go?

[Charlie Bernstein]

There's a popular fiddle book. It's big, and it has the guitar chords. You'll find it if you around Google for it. The fiddlers you play with probably know the name.

It has two versions: glue-bound and spriral-bound. Get the spiral-bound. The glue-bound is impossible to keep open.

[catt]

Originally Posted by Ralph124C41

I would like to play at the jams...

As you've observed, an Irish tune session isn't a "jam." Generally, it's not a great approach to show up and expect to strum chords to tunes you don't know. It's recommended to learn the tunes particular to the group - so that you can contribute to the music. Backing in Irish session music is different than playing guitar in major/minor simple structure BG tunes and songs.

You might take a look at some online resources discussing the role and techniques of "backing" in the idiom.

[Dave Hicks]

Originally Posted by Charlie Bernstein

There's a popular fiddle book. It's big, and it has the guitar chords. You'll find it if you around Google for it. The fiddlers you play with probably know the name.

It has two versions: glue-bound and spriral-bound. Get the spiral-bound. The glue-bound is impossible to keep open.

Old time fiddle tunes. There are several different versions - this one has melody in notation and mandolin tab, but also shows bar lines and chords. Online recordings of the tunes are available.

https://www.amazon.com/Old-Time-Fest...s%2C110&sr=1-5

D.H.

[rmp]

Yea,,

I don't mean to sound judgmental, but it sounds like too much chasing around and added work for you to "Fit in" and not enough "community awareness" which to me, is the entire point of this kind of a jam.

what if the tunes you just spent a few hours learning are not even called when you're there?

I'm with the "hard pass" idea too. Try some open mics, much more welcoming a crowd usually.

[Dave Hicks]

This one has a lot of Celtic and US tunes, and some others - notation with chords indicated. Too old for any online add-ons. My copy has lost its covers over the centuries.

https://www.amazon.com/Old-Time-Fest...s%2C110&sr=1-5

D.H.

[catt]

Originally Posted by rmp

...what if the tunes you just spent a few hours learning are not even called when you're there?..

Etiquette for Irish session is, if one doesn't know the tunes, one doesn't play - nor noodle along. It's common. It's also common to attend sessions, without playing, in order to learn the tunes.

*There's plenty of material available, specifically for backing, that discuss these aspects, as well as general approaches. https://thesession.org/discussions/search?q=Backing

[Ralph124C41]

Originally Posted by catt

As you've observed, an Irish tune session isn't a "jam." Generally, it's not a great approach to show up and expect to strum chords to tunes you don't know. It's recommended to learn the tunes particular to the group - so that you can contribute to the music. Backing in Irish session music is different than playing guitar in major/minor simple structure BG tunes and songs.

You might take a look at some online resources discussing the role and techniques of "backing" in the idiom.

You are 102 percent correct I think. But I want to learn the tunes ... but nobody seems to want to help me out. What I did at the first session (see, no longer using the word "jam" because you're right as it is not that) was to listen to a tune, get its name and its key ... and then go online and find out about it and then try to play it.

[Ralph124C41]

Originally Posted by rmp

Yea,,

I don't mean to sound judgmental, but it sounds like too much chasing around and added work for you to "Fit in" and not enough "community awareness" which to me, is the entire point of this kind of a jam.

what if the tunes you just spent a few hours learning are not even called when you're there?

I'm with the "hard pass" idea too. Try some open mics, much more welcoming a crowd usually.

I agree with your pretty much on the first point ... but I disagree with you pretty much on the second point. The jams in my area seem to have a group of more or less "house" musicians and it is hard to play with them if you hope to be a backline player on acoustic guitar or electric bass. Yes they are open to your doing a 3 or 4-song set but that if you are a frontman, w hich I'm not. There doesn't seem really to be any place for me to fit it at an open mic ... or in this fiddle group either.

Guess I will sell all my guitars and gear and take up knitting. Or watching the soaps on TV.

[Ralph124C41]

Originally Posted by catt

Etiquette for Irish session is, if one doesn't know the tunes, one doesn't play - nor noodle along. It's common. It's also common to attend sessions, without playing, in order to learn the tunes.

*There's plenty of material available, specifically for backing, that discuss these aspects, as well as general approaches. https://thesession.org/discussions/search?q=Backing

But there's the Catch 22. I don't know the tunes and nobody will help me identify the tunes. As I said in another post that is the only thing I can do ... attend and then do my homework on the tunes.

[Ralph124C41]

Originally Posted by rmp

Yea,,

I don't mean to sound judgmental, but it sounds like too much chasing around and added work for you to "Fit in" and not enough "community awareness" which to me, is the entire point of this kind of a jam.

what if the tunes you just spent a few hours learning are not even called when you're there?

I'm with the "hard pass" idea too. Try some open mics, much more welcoming a crowd usually.

On the songs, there is a form of a circle so you can call out the songs. There is another group, however, that doesn't do that at all. The leader just calls out the song (and sometimes the key) and start playing ... and then goes to the next ... and the next ... until it's time to leave.