The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #1  
Old 11-19-2018, 12:06 PM
TBman's Avatar
TBman TBman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 35,829
Default What is 6/8 and why does it exist?

My brain is currently wired to 4/4 time it would seem. My brain also likes to resolve melodies within 2 to 4 bars which is stifling a lot of creativity on my part. Why are there different time signatures, other than ease of notating?
__________________
Barry

Sad Moments {Marianne Vedral cover}:


My SoundCloud page

Some steel strings, some nylon.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-19-2018, 12:25 PM
ljguitar's Avatar
ljguitar ljguitar is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: wyoming
Posts: 42,558
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBman View Post
My brain is currently wired to 4/4 time it would seem. My brain also likes to resolve melodies within 2 to 4 bars which is stifling a lot of creativity on my part. Why are there different time signatures, other than ease of notating?
Hi Barry

Though it can be 'other-than-this' 6/8 time is usually played like 2/4 dived into triplets (rather than 2/4 played with eighth notes in duplet).

In other words it sub-groups the beats into threes rather than twos or fours.

And 12/8 is similar in that it's usually played like 4/4 subdivided into triplets.


__________________

Baby #1.1
Baby #1.2
Baby #02
Baby #03
Baby #04
Baby #05

Larry's songs...

…Just because you've argued someone into silence doesn't mean you have convinced them…
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-19-2018, 12:31 PM
packmule packmule is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 506
Default

6/8 would be the time signature used for playing jigs in Irish traditional music. A jig of course is a dance - novices to ITM sometimes play jigs in 4/4 time, not realizing that they're nullifying the whole point of a jig being a jig!
__________________
1969 Martin 00-18
2018 Frank Tate tenor guitar
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-19-2018, 12:50 PM
1neeto 1neeto is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,412
Default

6/8 is one of those time signatures that didn’t make sense to me for a long time. Since a 6/8 piece can be played in 3/4 and sound exactly the same.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-19-2018, 01:01 PM
Doug Young's Avatar
Doug Young Doug Young is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mountain View, CA
Posts: 9,879
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBman View Post
Why are there different time signatures, other than ease of notating?
It's not just notating, it has to do with the feel, where the pulse is. Simple example, 3/4 is a waltz, think of the Danube Waltz, or Tennessee Waltz, a strong um-pah-pah, while 4/4 is totally different. 5/4 is also different, listen to the sound of "Take Five". It's where the strong and week accents are.

With 6/8, as others have said, it's counted in 2: 1,xx,2xx. 6/8 and 12/8 besides being for jigs, is also the feel of blues (12/8 usually).

As a notational thing, you could write a shuffle blues in 4/4 with everything being triplets, and that'd be the same feel, but 12/8 is easier to read. So some things are related to notation (i.e. communicating with others), but the key is the pulse and feel of each time signature.

There's probably some better demos of this stuff on you tube, but with a quick search, I found this, which seems ok:

Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-19-2018, 01:04 PM
philjs philjs is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Halifax, NS, Canada
Posts: 1,970
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBman View Post
My brain is currently wired to 4/4 time it would seem. My brain also likes to resolve melodies within 2 to 4 bars which is stifling a lot of creativity on my part. Why are there different time signatures, other than ease of notating?
Hi Barry,

To me the difference between 3/4 and 6/8 is the pulse: 3/4 is odd while 6/8 is even.

In 3/4 you've got an odd count to each bar often, for waltzes anyway, with the accent on the first beat of each measure, ie. | ONE two three | ONE two three | OR it can be counted as | One and Two and Three and | One and Two and Three and | but both give you three distinct beats in each bar.

In 6/8 you get an even count because the bar is divided into two groups of three (rather than three groups of two) usually with the accent on the first beat of each group of three, ie. | One and a Two and a | One and a Two and a | etc. As LJ pointed out, it can often be counted similarly to 2/4 because the accents are simply One Two, One Two, etc.

Hope this helps...

Phil
__________________
Solo Fingerstyle CDs:
Two Steps Forward, One Step Back (2021)
One Size Does Not Fit All (2018)

I play Crosby, Emerald, Larrivée, Lowden, Rainsong & Tacoma guitars.
Check out my Guitar Website. See guitar photos & info at my Guitars page.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-19-2018, 01:11 PM
FwL FwL is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 301
Default

6/8 comes from before triplet notation was a thing. 2/4 is simple time, 6/8 is compound time for 2/4. Compound time was/is used for writing triplet rhythms.

2/4 = 2 notes per beat = 1 & 2 &

6/8 = 3 notes per beat = 1 & a 2 & a


3/4 = 2 notes per beat = 1 & 2 & 3 &

9/8 = 3 notes per beat = 1 & a 2 & a 3 & a


4/4 = 2 notes per beat = 1 & 2 & 3 & 4 &

12/8 = 3 notes per beat = 1 & a 2 & a 3 & a 4 & a


.
__________________
.
.

Playing Guitar - Books, Free Lessons & Practice Resources
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-19-2018, 01:52 PM
stanron stanron is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,428
Default

I hope that this is not too much boggle;

There are two distinct classes of time signature. They are called simple time and compound time.

In simple time the beats divide into two. 2/4 3/4 4/4 6/4 are examples, as are 2/2 and 3/2. The top number tells you how many beats there are. The bottom number is how the notes are written. In x/8 beats are written as quavers or 1/8th notes, in x/4 beats are written as crotchets or 1/4 notes and in x/2 beats are written as minims or 1/2 notes.

In compound time the beats divide into three. 3/8 6/8 9/9 and 12/8. Divide the top number by three to find how many beats. In all of these a beat is written as a dotted crotchet or dotted 1/4 note.

There are also irregular time signatures where the music does not naturally fall into equal groupings.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-19-2018, 02:20 PM
rschultz rschultz is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Knoxville, TN
Posts: 1,289
Default

6/8 is possibly my favorite time signature. I used to think 6/8 was the same as 3/4... but it's not as others have said.
__________________
'10 Wechter 5712c - Fishman Rare Earth
'13 Jaffrey #26 - Malaysian Blackwood!
'21 Gretsch 5622
'22 Furch Red Pure G-LR - Barbera Soloist
ST-300 Mini + DIY mic preamp
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-19-2018, 03:56 PM
rick-slo's Avatar
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 17,172
Default

http://www.brassstages.com/acrobat/68supp.PDF
__________________
Derek Coombs
Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs

"Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love
To be that we hold so dear
A voice from heavens above
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-19-2018, 11:09 PM
TBman's Avatar
TBman TBman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 35,829
Default

Thanks everyone, great stuff to review.
__________________
Barry

Sad Moments {Marianne Vedral cover}:


My SoundCloud page

Some steel strings, some nylon.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-19-2018, 11:43 PM
1neeto 1neeto is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 3,412
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post


Simple and to the point.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-20-2018, 02:23 AM
Paddy1951 Paddy1951 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Posts: 1,759
Default

I have been involved in IrishTrad music for over twenty years. Guitar is not my main instrument for trad.

I teach the bodhran (the Irish drum) at the Irish Fest School of Music.
I find that it is easier for students to understand 6/8 by use of a phrase rather than counting. The accents are on the one and four. ie.

SEE - the - hi -BER - ni - an

EL- e - gant - EL - e - phant

BOT -tle - of - JA - mes - on

This has worked well for me. Students seem to grasp the feel of this time signature more easily. By repeating any of these phrases out loud or in their heads, the feel or pulse (two) becomes apparent.

As to the purpose... Irish Traditional Music is dance music, first. The Jig being a major part of it.

I hope that helps.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-20-2018, 03:49 AM
Silly Moustache Silly Moustache is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: The Isle of Albion
Posts: 22,070
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TBman View Post
My brain is currently wired to 4/4 time it would seem. My brain also likes to resolve melodies within 2 to 4 bars which is stifling a lot of creativity on my part. Why are there different time signatures, other than ease of notating?
Hi TB man,

6/8 time was my favourite time signature when I was a drummer in R&B bands back in the '60s.

I can't explain it to you like others, as my playing (drums or guitar) has always been instinctive, but here are a couple of examples.

Here a a bland example for a slow blues accompaniment that you can solo over :




Also remember that Percy sledge hit - "When a Man Loves A woman" which is the first song in 6/8 that comes to mind

Here it is :

Note. Here in the UK we have a weekly competition show where "celebs" are taught to dance - called "Strictly Come Dancing" and I believe that in the US there is a version called "Dancing with the Stars".

In both these shows, when they dance a waltz, the bad always plays pop songs in 6/8 (and not 3/4), probably because pop songs ballads don't use 3/4 much now.

See this :

Watch from 2.00 and stop at 3.29 before you get to the sickly parts.

So, the basic ballad 6/8 is like ONE ,2,3, FOUR!,5,6 - ONE, 2,3 FOUR! 5,6,

Often it is more like 1,2,3,FOUR,5,6, etc.

See this ;

(I'd rather Go blind?)



In contrast, to show the difference between 6/8 and 3/4 - here IS a proper 3/4 Waltz :



Here's a drummer (left handed) describing this ....which ...may ....help (?)



Hope that helps - I LOOOOVE 6/8!
__________________
Silly Moustache,
Just an old Limey acoustic guitarist, Dobrolist, mandolier and singer.
I'm here to try to help and advise and I offer one to one lessons/meetings/mentoring via Zoom!
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 11-20-2018, 04:34 AM
JonPR JonPR is online now
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 6,450
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1neeto View Post
6/8 is one of those time signatures that didn’t make sense to me for a long time. Since a 6/8 piece can be played in 3/4 and sound exactly the same.
Well, it can sometimes sound like a pair of 3/4 bars, and it would be a subtle difference in that case. For two 3/4 bars to be better written as 6/8, there would need to be a clear difference between the downbeats of alternate bars.

Another argument for making pairs of 3/4 bars into single 6/8 bars - in addition to that subtle rhythmic emphasis - would be the harmonic rhythm (rate of chord change). If the chords change every two 3/4 bars (as well as a weaker downbeat on the second of each pair) then 6/8 makes a lot of sense. (In some case, 6/4 would be better, but that's rare.) Harmonic rhythm is often a good way to decide between 6/8 and 12/8.

A single bar of 6/8 can be made to sound like a single bar of 3/4 - and vice versa - by means of cross-rhythm, but normally a piece will be clearly in one or the other for the most part.
__________________
"There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in." - Leonard Cohen.
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=